Update
I have gotten requests by email and in the comments to put up a new post to tell you all how I am doing. I appreciate all the concern shown to me. It makes me feel good.
One reason I have not posted for many weeks is that I have nothing very new to say. Since the last post I have had a few dates but none of them “turned into anything.” My depression is slowly getting better, I continue to volunteer in my community and see friends. Lately I have been making time for a new activity I have always wanted to try and now I am trying it and it is fun.
I am researching whether it is feasible for me to travel for a few weeks or months to Europe or Israel, to date and/or to study or work for a little while. I have a good job so I first have to make sure that I can take a leave and I have to make sure it is financially feasible for me. If it is then I think travelling will be nice and will open up new dating opportunities. If that does not work out I am also thinking about adopting a puppy as I love animals and it is true, as a reader said to me, that dogs are playful and love people unconditionally. It would be nice to come home to something and have something to take care of.
One thing I must mention, since this blog is all about the truth of what I am feeling, is that as Shavuos approaches I am irrationally thinking a lot about a comment by “Eesh Aish” in which he said about two months ago “by Shavuos she’ll be engaged for sure.” I want you to know, Eesh Aish, wherever you are, that your comment is coming back to haunt me, and now you. What was the point of it? I am not engaged, not having much more success than 2 months ago at least in dating, and now your comment is just one more weapon I can use against myself when I want to feel sorry for myself. It was such a stupid thing to say. I do not want to say that it is “ruining my Shavuos,” because of course I am not quite that petty or self-pitying. I will focus on all the wonderful things about the holiday. But your ridiculous comment has been crossing my mind sometimes, and every time I remember it I feel grim. That is why I wrote in a previous post that you should never tell a single person “I am sure you will get married soon.” Because how are they supposed to feel if they do not? It was not very nice of you to go against my advice on my own blog. There, I needed to get that off my chest.
Another thing that is a little different since my last post is that almost as much as I think about sex now I think about having a baby. Not being pregnant or raising a child but giving birth. I have this strange instinctive craving for it. It seems that as I enter the last years that I can bear a child my body is craving it very badly and trying to get me to get moving. It feels like a purely biological instinct.
Well there is not much I can do about it. I have already posted that I do not feel financially or emotionally able to raise a child by myself right now and also I do not intellectually feel comfortable with the idea of bringing a child into the world without a father, when there are so many babies available for adoption who have no parent at all. But it is interesting that the physical instinct to be a mother is so strong. And it is very hard to overcome one’s physical instincts. It seems that so much of my life is about that. Which leads me back to the question, by lifting myself above my physical instincts, am I being holy, or am I being stupid?
One reason I have not posted for many weeks is that I have nothing very new to say. Since the last post I have had a few dates but none of them “turned into anything.” My depression is slowly getting better, I continue to volunteer in my community and see friends. Lately I have been making time for a new activity I have always wanted to try and now I am trying it and it is fun.
I am researching whether it is feasible for me to travel for a few weeks or months to Europe or Israel, to date and/or to study or work for a little while. I have a good job so I first have to make sure that I can take a leave and I have to make sure it is financially feasible for me. If it is then I think travelling will be nice and will open up new dating opportunities. If that does not work out I am also thinking about adopting a puppy as I love animals and it is true, as a reader said to me, that dogs are playful and love people unconditionally. It would be nice to come home to something and have something to take care of.
One thing I must mention, since this blog is all about the truth of what I am feeling, is that as Shavuos approaches I am irrationally thinking a lot about a comment by “Eesh Aish” in which he said about two months ago “by Shavuos she’ll be engaged for sure.” I want you to know, Eesh Aish, wherever you are, that your comment is coming back to haunt me, and now you. What was the point of it? I am not engaged, not having much more success than 2 months ago at least in dating, and now your comment is just one more weapon I can use against myself when I want to feel sorry for myself. It was such a stupid thing to say. I do not want to say that it is “ruining my Shavuos,” because of course I am not quite that petty or self-pitying. I will focus on all the wonderful things about the holiday. But your ridiculous comment has been crossing my mind sometimes, and every time I remember it I feel grim. That is why I wrote in a previous post that you should never tell a single person “I am sure you will get married soon.” Because how are they supposed to feel if they do not? It was not very nice of you to go against my advice on my own blog. There, I needed to get that off my chest.
Another thing that is a little different since my last post is that almost as much as I think about sex now I think about having a baby. Not being pregnant or raising a child but giving birth. I have this strange instinctive craving for it. It seems that as I enter the last years that I can bear a child my body is craving it very badly and trying to get me to get moving. It feels like a purely biological instinct.
Well there is not much I can do about it. I have already posted that I do not feel financially or emotionally able to raise a child by myself right now and also I do not intellectually feel comfortable with the idea of bringing a child into the world without a father, when there are so many babies available for adoption who have no parent at all. But it is interesting that the physical instinct to be a mother is so strong. And it is very hard to overcome one’s physical instincts. It seems that so much of my life is about that. Which leads me back to the question, by lifting myself above my physical instincts, am I being holy, or am I being stupid?
posted by Shomer Negiah at 6/07/2005 07:26:00 AM
53 Comments:
Am I being holy, or am I being stupid?
You will undoubtedly find people who will call you holy, and those who will call you stupid. But the reality is, you're struggling. And without rendering any kind of positive or negative judgment, it sounds to me that what you are most, is human.
People who try to tell you you'll be married by a certain time mean well. But they should know better.
Thanks for updating us. What I wish you, more than sex or companionship or marriage or a baby, is the resolution of your internal struggle to make sense of what you believe Judaism expects of you.
NJG,
Good to hear from you. I am all for the taking time off to travel/study/work/date. Do it if and when you can. Do it for yourself, not just for dating. Everyone should. For mind and soul. Otherwise, keep yourself busy. Volunteer. Go out with friends. Read, write, compose, paint. Get a pet.
Ignore stupid people who post senseless comments. You are better and stronger, and it will happen at the right time with the right person. Till then, just enjoy life and serve Hashem the best you can. That's what it's there for.
Will it help to volunteer to do work with young children/babies? Or will that compound the issue?
You are being holy and an inspiration. Please come back more often.
TRK
I am also unmarried and Orthodox and I feel for you. At this point you have to take the bull by its horns.
There are many singles events for all different age groups. There are more and more Orthodox singles making events and get togethers.
You have a good a job and I'm sure you have enough money to last yourself for a while.
Find an inexpensive apartment if the current one will force you to work.
Make getting married your 'job.' Go to events meet people. 'Chavrach chavrah is le' " A friend has another friend- one person leads to the next. Go out to events just to enjoy yourself and people will get to know you and who knows what can happen. If you don't get out then who will know you and what enjoyment will you have?
I am talking to myself as much as to you and to all the singles out there.
If this is really a serious goal, which it is for all of us, then we must treat it as our job.
I am now going to events very easily-something which just a year ago I wasn't really doing. Going to work and staying home is not the right way. Take a long sabbatical; there is a whole summer coming up there will be many events and people to meet
- but ONLY IF you put yourself there.
If you would want to hear about any things coming that I hear about email me at js3j@yahoo.com.
Hatzlacha to you and to me and to all others.
Joe, sorry that is totally stupid. Leave her job. She had dates in the last few weeks, let her tell us about them.
i really hear what you are saying. and u r not alone in your sentiments. im so glad u have given us an update
The question is not whether U R being stupid or holy? The question is what R your priorities/beliefs. When u speak of marriage on some level you r speaking of love.(a hard thing to find) When speaking of being kissed we r discussing the physical.(much easier to come by)Now being unmarried at 29 I can relate, HOWEVER, I recognize that my sucesses and failures r the result of my actions. People said some nasty albeit funny but cruel things, in relation to your original posting. Truth be told looks are only part of the issue anyway. R u distant? R U a perfectionist? Just don't forget you may feel helpless but the almighty usualy puts us in situations where our decisions are paramount. It was brave of u to step up and scream primaly but now can you turn a "soft voice" inwards and take control. PS. if you stil need to be kissed I can take care O that! ;)
my soul hurts for you. ill keep you in my prayers as well. good luck with everything.
would you be open to writing a book about this experience? you probably could use a pseudonym. surely it would get you some money, which could open options for you regarding travel, motherhood, meeting new men, etc. if it's possible, let me know.
A dog sounds like a good idea. The companionship we get from animals is wonderful and meaningful.
Depression is demonic. It digs its tentacles into your eyes so that you can't see your way out. It buries them into your ears so that you cannot hear the truth. Sometimes it even shuts up your mouth so that you cannot call for help. But mostly it drives its claws into your mind so that you cannot think straight and into your heart so that you cannot feel correctly. It is a blackness.
Demon depression has a weakness, however. It cannot withstand its "host" praising God. The praise drives it away in horror.
I am a Christian and don't wish to seem overly spiritual, but I noticed this phenomenon recently.
There was a Wedensday that suddenly I began berating myself. I had no work, was running out of money, and couldn't find a job. Everything was dark. I allowed the darkness to continue, even fed it with self pity. By Saturday I was suicidal. My wife was really worried, by daughter (only 4 at the time) knew something was wrong.
The next morning I had promised to mix the sound for the worship band at church. They began to play, and I couldn't mix it right because I couldn't get them to sing out. So I said "here, sing like this!" and sang with passion and volume. They invited me to sing with them. The music went great, the mix sounded good, and I noticed afterwards that the blackness ... it was gone! I had felt it lift from me as I sang and it couldn't bear coming back.
In the third Psalm it says "But thou, O LORD, [art] a shield for me; my glory, and the lifter up of mine head." That's what "lifter up of mine head" means - He lifts depression.
This is not the only time I've experienced this phenomenon, just the most recent. I'm not exactly sure what praise music is in the Orthodox Jewish world, but I bet it would have the same effect ... sing to Him! Sing with all of your heart and mind and strength and feel the depression lift!
I remember being single. I hated it. I was almost 29 before I got married. Unfortunately, I did not marry with my virginity in tact. I lost it at about 25. But I have been a faithful husband for 22 years now and thank the Lord frequently for my wife. If S.N. means that you stay a virgin until you are married, I'd recommend it for you and your future husband's sake. Trust me, I know how difficult it is, and so does Hashem, as you would put it.
The key thing from what I have read of your blog, is to get rid of the depression ... it's not attractive to a man. Try it, praise Him and see ...
G
Wonderful to hear from you again, NJG! As you can see, everyone missed you and has been pulling for you.
Another suggestion may be to get involved with children on the volunteer level, either through tutoring or mentoring (a Big Sister-type program).
As for Eek Aish, it amazes me, lulei demistafina, how much that guy got under your skin--then and now. You seem to be the ONLY one on your blog who takes him remotely seriously.
As for your question (and the discussion on Jewlicious is three times as long as this one), it begs itself--if you believed even for a moment that what you were doing was stupid, you wouldn't be doing it. A believer struggles with the ANSWER to that question, not the question itself.
Continue to fight the good, noble and true fight.
It's great to hear that things are getting better, NJG! I've been reading your blog mostly since you stopped posting and I really admire you for your soul searching and your realistic outlook. As a somewhat younger guy my situation is not the same as yours, but I definitely relate, and I definitely empathize.
I have no great suggestions beyond what other people have already amply mentioned. Getting away for a few months can be a very refreshing experience. I was working in a different city for 3 months, and it felt like a long vacation, constantly going out and exploring and meeting new people at nights and on weekends.
Just for laughs, thinking of the annoying oft-repeated "Soon by you": a few days ago I spoke to an old rebbi of mine who I see on average twice a year. As always, without fail, his hello is: "What's new? Are you married yet?"
Keep strong! We're all rooting for you.
I've also been thinking about spending some time somwhere else-- not telling myself that it is a long term move but something that I am doing for 3 or 4 months. Maybe in another city, maybe Israel. Some of it for dating but mostly I think that just being somewhere else might be really healthy and refreshing.
I really hate to rain on your parade, but this is so typically Modern Orthodox. I think it's really sad that most important factor in this equation is the one that is most often left out, until it is introduced by no less than a X-tian visitor to your blog. That is of course, Hashem. We are Jews. We are supposed to believe that everything we have and will ever have is deliverd to us by Hashem. Sometimes through many intermediaries and sometimes in such a miraculous manner that even the most skeptical must concede it's divine intervention.
The Gemarah says Hashem deprived the Avot of children, in order that they should pray to him. For the prayers of the righteous are desireable to Hashem. I repeat from my previous post, which I believe you deleted, when you first wanted your dad's car keys, you begged him for them. You promised you wouldn't speed, you wouldn't stay out late, etc, etc. Hashem listens. But you have to ask. If your dad didn't give the keys the first time, you didn't stop asking. You promised him you'd wash the car, fill it up before you brought it back, etc. Until he finally gave in. The wonderful people that are trying to help with all kinds of advice to go to singles groups, weekends, workshops, travel, have all forgotten the first item of business. Daven. Not once, and not twice, but everyday. You need not limit it to getting married, you can include alleviating your depression, and increasing your parnassah. But it all starts with davening. It's about time the Modern orthodox community stops looking down their noses at the Chasidic community and maybe take a hint. I know many people who have witnessed the bar mitzvah or the wedding of a great grandchild. How many MO Jews will live to see their grandchildren if they continue to let the average age of marriage slip further into the 30s? The system is not broke. Modern orthodox CHOSE not to use the system. First you have to go to college. Then you have to have to go to grad school, then you have to travel the world, then you have to establish yourself in the business world, THEN, if you have time, do G-d a big favor and think about getting married. Why? Because that's what Goyim do and why should we be deprived. There is a halacha in Shulchan Orech, if a man is not married by 18-20 WE FORCE HIM TO TAKE A WIFE. That may sound extreme by todays standards, but Chazal, unlike MO, took getting married and procreating very seriously.
As far as parnassah, I know many people that live in very large comfortable houses, with very large families, when asked how they manage to pay all their bills, one yingerman told me "I have no idea, but somehow all the bills get paid." He davens.
Let me ask you a simple question, who will look harder for a job, a thirty two year old with a post graduate degree and 12 letters following his name, that's living at home with his parents, OR, a twenty year old married shnook with two kids? Don't worry about Parnassah, when you need it or deserve it, Hashem sends it.
Daven. It works for those who use it.
Chaim Yankel,
Although your tone is, lulei demistafina, unduly harsh, you make a very valid point. But you do need to tone it down a notch or three. Or twelve.
NJG, to all appearances, is not MO (Unless, of course, you consider everyone non-chassidishe MO); Modern Orthodox kids today are, in the main, not Shomer Negia and are therefore not dealing with the same pain that NJG is.
Moreover, your pooh-poohing the problem is more appropriate would we be talking about males. Almost every single, frum man could be married tomorrow if he really wanted to be--throw the Shulchan Aruch at them. Not so the women. There are many wonderful Bais Yaakov girls, who began dating at 18, did not go to college (or certainly didn't make it a priority), and who are as disgusted by the Goyishe velt as you are. They are still not married and many are not even getting very many offers.
The importance of davening has not been ignored on this site, but you are right to emphasize it. Just be a little nicer next time.
Cool blog. I get to write in the lady's herself site as opposed to the Jewlicious spin on her effort here as I have done for the past few days. Really I feel almost a sense of closer to the source. You chartered youreself quite a path here. True, you are not alone. I am SN, but you are getting some attention for this in a blog kind of way. It seems to
be good. It is hard to say. I have no idea on how you are handling this. Then I dont know you. I hope you are seeing the beauty of being SN. For some being SN is an active deal, for others it could be passive or any combination or spectrum of behaviour, as I am sure you know. What I mean is that you can just be SN and be all holy to youre
self, just minding youre own bussiness. The other extreme you would be actively SN and persuade
and instruct. My guess so far are taking the active attitude it would seem. However, I can't say for sure really. I am very impressed so far. You may
have not asked for this noteriety. This may also be an expression of true Malchut. Very cool.....
Hi!
I just came across your blog. I didn't read all of it, just glanced here and there.
Have you tried the shiddach sites? Frumster, bitachon, jewishcafe, mitmazel. These are a few that I have had success with. Of course, be careful..not everyone is as they represent. There are married men there that won't tell you they are married. Before I dated anyone from these sites, I did try to get common ground (a friend or acquaintence that would know us both. This isn't difficult in the frum world wwhere we are all barely 2 degrees of separation)
Another suggestion that I know has worked for many..did you have a kiddush when you were born? If not, manyhave had success after making themselves a kiddush. The reason fr this is that people will come over and say mazel tov and wish you L'Torah, L'Chupa and L'Maasim Tovim. These are not guarantees, but they can't hurt.
Best of luck to you.
it must be terribly to be 35 and S"N i'm just 20 and s"n with no real hope of getting married and it's terrible. let alone 35! (guy though) don't really have much family either though. but, keep strong. i know i'll say tehillim though.
Hi I read this blog for the first time and I really like it a lot. I am 25 and feel pretty much the same why. I know for a lot of people here it does not seem like I am that old but in my community I am on the shelf and moldy.
I felt sad when I read this blog only becase it touched something in me that has been bothering me for a long time. Even when I was ateenager I knew that finding a partner would be difficult for me.. Im not sure why..
Its not so much a sexual relationship that I am missing but an intimate relationship. I have been non shomer negiyah three times and each time the guilt overwhelmed me, and it just lacked any pleasure - mostly because they were inexperienced religious type boys who kissed like elephants walk - without any grace.
Interestingly enough I was talking to this girl I go to university with who was telling me about getting married 3 years earlier and her two year old child. shes 42, but the thing she said to me is that all those years her parents were pressuring her and the such, once she got married all those worries went away, like they were a dream, and she wouldnt have changed anything if this was what it took to meet her husband.
There is nothing to say that either of us will get married, but i wish u all the best - i hope that this just means that u are destined for great things.
Thank you so much for your very touching blog! It was mentioned on Jewlicious and I spent some hours now to read every post, including every single comment.
I got very angry on this "by Shavuos she’ll be engaged for sure" as well, with Shavuot just a few hours from now, and the cheesecake ready in my fridge to be shared with some girl-/womanfriends, the ones I already had a single women's seder with last year.
Taking off some time to travel / study is a great idea and coming to Israel will for sure make you feel better spiritually, but don't expect it to be a solution. It is easier here to be SN, thus in daily life you won't have problems with shaking hands, male doctors, colleagues etc., but I find it much harder to be a single woman 30+ than it is in Europe where I grew up. I am nearly 39, 'slipped' at the age of 21 and 34, and I haven't been on a single date since I moved to Israel (Jerusalem) in 2002. All the people I met here are great and I love my friends, but they are either unmarried women or married couples with cute kids whose friends are only more married couples with cute kids.
You might want to think about spending some time at a place in Europe which has are large orthodox / conservative community like London, Manchester, Antwerp (very close-knit, from my impression), Amsterdam, ..., maybe even some French city (but there is the serious threat of violent anti-semitism, I wouldn't go there! And, well, the language -- it's not a good idea to live in France if you don't speak French). Europeans tend to marry much later, and although I don't have any exact data, I think that this is true for frum people as well -- at least it is true for all my friends from Europe who are married. Secondly, in Europe it seems to be more accepted than in Israel and the US that women have sexual desire, wishes, and phantasies as well and not only men, thus it might be easier to give some very decent and subtle hint about this in a discussion when seeing someone who has the potential of a future husband.
(And I write all this although I find it very hard and painful to tell someone to delay starting a life in Israel for even one day.)
I feel with you, take care, and may all your wishes come true very soon!
please delete needsajobbadly's post about chutzpahandthesuburbs.com. thank you.
B"H
You need a miracle like one described in my screename link above.
B"H
A new blog quotes various sources sugesting another solution for people such as yourself:
Shelos Yaavetz -R.Yakov Emden. Ch.2:15-שאילת יעב"ץ ח"ב טו
It was clarified that - דכבר נתבאר
Pilegesh was never prohibited- דפלגש לא נאסרה
and was never known to be prohibited...ולא נודע שקבלוה לאיסור
only a mistaken custom which has no binding..ומנהג בטעות אינו מנהג
And in truth a Pilegesh is permitted...ובאמת הוא מותר
on the contrary it is a guard to the Torah-אדרבה ההפך הוא סייג לתורה
to distance a person from sin ..-להרחיק מן העבירה ולמעט בזמה
of nidah, shifcha, goiyah, zonah...דנדה שפחה גויה זונה
for the unmarried-מן הבלתי נשואין
and for married men as well-וגם הנשואין בעת
when their wives are not available to them..שאין נשותיהן מצויות להם
therefore the Torah permitted them-לפיכך התירתן התורה
to the jewish man- לאיש הישראלי
for it prohibits him znuth,niuf,-מפני שאסר לו הזנות והניאוף
& their wives are prohibited-וגם אשתו אסורה לו
many days of nidah ,zavah & laidah -ימים רבים של נדה ,וזבה ולידה
therefore not for nought-לפיכך לא לחינם
has the Torah permitted them... תורה התירתן
and so are many Ashkenazi customs-וכן הרבה ממנהגי אשכנז
if only they never would have existed-הלואי שלא היו
nor were created in this land,-ולא נבראו
for their outcome lead-דנפקי מינייהו חורבא ותקלות גדולות
to great obstacles and destruction of Torah... ועצומות בגופי אסורי תורה
Therefore my opinion is; It is a great mitzvah-לכן לדעתי מצוה רבה
to publicize this permission (of Pilegesh).-לפרסם ההיתר
Bais Shmuel Shl.Arch.26:2-שו"ע בית שמואל ס' כו ס"ק
it may be said that it is permitted-י"ל שמותר וראיה
and proof from the words of the Rosh-מדברי הרא"ש
in Kesubos... בכתובות
for it is written there - שהרי כתב שם
that one can fulfil the mitzvah of being fruitful -דיכול לקיים פו"ר
with a Pilegesh ..-..בפלגש
..but a Pilegesh-אבל פילגש
does not need -אין צריך
a Brochoh or Kidushin.-ברכה וקידושין
Taz:2-ט"ז ס"ק ב
and so is it written-וכן כתוב
in the Responses of the Ramban-בתשובה לרמב"ן
posted by odom at 1:40 AM 1 comments
Tuesday, May 31, 2005
Rishonim ראשונים
Ravad (Nashim Chpt.1 Hil.Eishus)- (ראב"ד (הלכות אישות פ"א
..But a woman who designates herself- אבל המיחדת עצמה
to one man only -לאיש אחד
there is no prohibition ,rather - אין בה לא מלקות ולא איסור לאו
she is the 'Pilegesh' that is written of - והיא הפלגש הכתובה
in the Torah - בתורה
Ramban(Teshuvos 284) - רמב"ן תשובה רפ"ד
I do not know what the doubt is - לא ידעתי במה יסתפקו בה
for surly she is permitted - דודאי מותרת היא
for he designated her for himself only..-..כיון שיחדה לעצמו
and she is permitted - ומותרת
for King David married a pilegesh - שהרי דוד נשא אותה
and the Torah nor the Gemarah diffrentiates - ולא הוזכר בכתוב ולא בגמרא
between a king and a common individual - הפרש בין מלך להדיוט
and we find great ones had Pilagshim - ומצינו גדולי ישראל נושאין אותן
Rosh Kesubos 1:12-רא"ש כתובות פ'א:יב
If one took a Pilegesh-ואם לקח פלגש
and fulfilled the mitzvah-וקיים
of being fruitful- פריה ורביה
he is not obligated with Kedushin..-..אינו מחיוב לקדש
see:
http://www.pilegesh.blogspot.com
for more.
Obviously this solution itself can present some other problems, but it wouldn't hurt you to look into it.
kisses are sweeter than whine.
Judaism emphasizes SATISFYING your physical instincts in a HOLY way.
Hungry? Eat with blessings!
Lustful? Get married!
Praise for those who "lift above physical instincts" is a NON-JEWISH borrowing, a skunk in our holy barnyard of Torah.
It's one thing to focus on the spiritual and SKIP a "meal" now and then (niddah, tisha b'av), but being STARVED for affection is TORTURE.
Of course, you can't blame Gd for torturing singles with His laws, heaven forbid. Adults aren't supposed to be unmarried for any significant length of time, and when they are, for any reason, it's a tragic ABERRATION.
Please, please, don't demean yourself and become one of those creepy, pathetic singles who claims to be happy, fulfilled, and actually orthodox, which means no "hanky-panky." Not even he slightest "hanky."
NJG, you don't have a problem in need of treatment by brainwashing your NORMAL HUMAN FEELINGS away, be it through therapy or drugs. And Torah study combats our EVIL urges, not our HUMAN urges. You just need to marry a good man, and soon, end of story. All the rest is commentary.
BF
I dont have the time or patience to read through all the comments. But, I am happy to see you blogging again. You are really an inspiration. How do you do it, Ms. SN? I am only 19, under constant surveilance from my parents and my school, and I still manage to get lots of physical attention and attention from various boyfriends.
If I didn't, I would go insane.
good grief, i really think the pilegesh guy should be deleted. i really dont think anyone who's been shomer negiah for 35 yrs has in mind to be a pilegesh.
don't you all see the comment about a pilegesh way a joke?
NJG- Eesh Aish also pissed me off and insulted me in previous comments. He is obviously a very sick individual who got off on intruding on your private space (such are the risks of blogging) Please ignore him and the commenters who are not here for the right reasons, and get on with everything you have to do. Take Care.
What a marvelous conversation by in large! This is a modern conundrum that needs to be taken seriously. There needs to be a space for such people in any faith, not everyone is paired in life, not everyone remains so either. In any community, no matter how religious there needs to be a recognition of this. We all need to make our own way in the world, and within the confines of our faith and conscience, this is always difficult, no matter the age or the hour.
I think NJG has it right, this is and can be a depressing circumstance, and many people suffer in silence from similar stories and situations. I don't know the answers. We can all pray, but can we find some decent men for such worthy women? Can we get Uncle Ned off the couch away from his paper or ESPN and back into the fray? Should we? (Was that divorce his fault? How about the 2nd one...) How about engaging more friends in the search? A wider network?
We hear the cry of their souls from loneliness and yet we manage to do so little. This needs an active campaign. It needs whatever advertising the best minds can muster... (Wait there's an industry for this? Already!?) Shoulder to the wheel people! We need more effort & more thought!
Wishing you well NJG, and wishing I was still in the Metro area. Cheers, 'VJ'
"Please, please, don't demean yourself and become one of those creepy, pathetic singles who claims to be happy, fulfilled, and actually orthodox..."
BF, what exactly is it that makes us creepy and pathetic? Is it that we are not you? Is it that rather than mope around openly depressed all our lives we make the most of the situations we are in, attempting to be happy and fulfilled? Speaking for myself and my many single friends, none of us want to be single. But while we are, we will definitely make the most of the experience. Why so many of us are single is beyond the scope of NJG's blog, but calling us pathetic and creepy doesn't do anything except discredit yourself.
I'm sorry, but I can't keep quiet any longer, so I'm finally going to say what has been preying on me for a long time re. you:
I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYONE SO BADLY IN NEED OF PHYSICAL CONTACT WITH THE OPPOSITE SEX.
Fine, don't have sex- but I think a few serious makeout sessions would do wonders for you. Darn it, you're a human being. Human beings crave sex/fondling. It's admirable that you've denied yourself for so long, but enough is enough already.
I had always planned to be a virgin when I got married (I fooled around with boyfriends but never went all the way). For some reason, it was important to me to save myself for my wedding night. But I always figured that if I wasn't married by the time I was 30, I'd go ahead and do it with someone I cared about. A lot of my friends felt the same way.
I ended up getting married at 26 so the question was moot, but if I hadn't, I eventually would have had unmarried sex. There's only so long you can wait. I think you deserve brownie points for waiting this long, but dammit, give it up already. It's ridiculous to be so cruel to yourself over a law that isn't even in the Torah!!!
Get out there and fool around. I guarantee you'll feel so much better. And I hate to say this, but what if it doesn't happen for you? What if you don't get married? Will you deny yourself for the rest of your life? Just do it!
I just want to add that this whole shomer negiah thing has done more harm than good. If religious teens were allowed to fool around, like the Amish, there wouldn't be so many hormone-crazed teenagers that had to be married off before they self-combusted from lust. People would get married at normal ages instead of 18 or 19.
The more I think about shomer negiah, the more ridiculous is sounds to me. You're supposed to never touch a guy, then suddenly on your wedding night BOOM! You're introduced to it all at once. That's not normal.
You're being stupid, nothing "holy" about being obsessed with sex all day long. "Hirhurei aveira kashim me'aveira".
I totally agree with one of the previous commenters - you urgently need some physical contact with a guy. It'll clear your mind up and possibly allow you to focus your energies elsewhere.
Lack of physical affection seems to have brought you to the brink - you've written about chilul shobbos - is that less an aveirah than sex?
G-d made us flesh and blood, and trying to deny that, and living as ascetic life, is incomptible with Judaism.
Your whole attitude towards sex has to change - you're not "giving it away" by having sex, and you're not saving some special gift for your future husband by not doing it; you're satifying one of your most basic and fundamental human needs. You've got this Victorian conception of sex as something which a woman "gives" a man. Hey,if I am to judge by my wife, and ex-girlfriends, I'd say that women are into sex no less than guys, if not more.
I know the world you're coming from, NJG, I was SN myself til 27, by which time I'd made a decision that enough was enough, and never regreted it. I had a number of relationships which weren't SN, and was married only 6 years later, at 33. Me and my wife (a totally upstanding m.o. chick) were in the sack by our fifth (ok, she remembers sixth) date, and never looked back. Looking back, do we feel any guilt whatsoever? None, absolutely zero. Our relationship could never have gotten off the ground if there was constant sexual tension between us, and the intimacy lead us to understand that we wanted to be together for the long haul. So, in the long run, we built a nice Jewish home and family, keep taharat hamishpacha (believe it or not, its easier once you're married...), etc. etc., partly by virtue of not keeping our "virtue"...
so many people suffer under such things, and in many cases they/we keep silent. i cannot psak or anything on your situation because i'm not there but i can let you know what i've been told (despite compleatly diffrent circumstances i think it might still do you a tad bit of good)
sometimes, dispite being chassidish, we just have to break these rules. they where 1: never even written for someone in your situation. 2: never even construed to apply to it by ANY of the great gedolim.
that said, i think it should be noted that, just because you break it alittle of the way does not mean you should do so all the way. yes we are human. yes we have feelings also what did they say in the torah, the first thing declared "not good"? it was LONELINESS and if your case doesn't count then there isn't anyone ever in the history of the world who has suffered from loneliness! if you need physical contact, if you need love, don't sit there waiting for it to come to you, go out there and go on shidduch dates. mabye the person will not look so good to begin with was rabbi akiva? no not really. but his bashert saw in him a potential not yet realized. and she married him and told him to go to yeshiva and then waited for him for 24 years for him to come back to her (not saying you should) and if this is to emotionaly taxing for you at this point then find someone you trust implicitly to search for you (think eliezer and his work for avrohom avinu) and to bring you people they really think could work. yes it hurts. it hurts worse than anything most people could immagine. but to simply resign your self to this is going to hurt you! no mater what else you read in torah we are not encouraged to hurt our selves. yes some people may say it's wrong to break it. so what!!! if it's what you have to do, you're beshert with understand. (sorry i'm getting a bit scatterbrained here) if you need someone who you would want to kiss, (and believe me i empithize having had serious emotional problems my whole live as well as a highly dysfunctional family) then you'll have to for better or for worse do what it takes to find one. will you be turned down by lots of people that are to self rightious to even think about marrying you? yes. are you going to feel terrible? yes. is it going to be all pretty? no. but just go out there and do what you have to, what ever it is! do something!
(yes i know i'm a guy and can hardly be said to be "in" your possition, but i can certainly relate. g-d bless you with sucsess, and all good things. and may you find you're way to the chupah due speed and with as little pain as nessicery to get there. g-d bless you in all the things you must do)
Thank you again to all (well, most) of the commenters.
I feel I must remind the readers that I do intend in all likelihood to "make out" with my next boyfriend. The problem is FINDING A BOYFRIEND.
Perhaps this point has gotten lost since the blog has many long posts. So I am repeating it. The problem is not that I am shomer negiah, the problem is I HAVE NO ONE TO BE NOT SHOMER NEGIAH WITH.
I do not feel any religious need any more to stay never-been-kissed until I get married. I agree that enough is enough. However, I do not want to make out with someone who I have met once and might never see again. I will not go to a bar and pick up some random guy. I want it to mean SOMETHING. It doesn't have to mean marriage but it should mean SOMETHING.
Everyone understand????
Needs a better job, somehow i don't think she'd be very intrested in going to a bar. i'm guessing the problem is that in order to find someone who cares about shomer negia you'd have to break about a dozen rules to find them and chances are they aren't all that intrested in talking to someone who will break those rules even though she's only doing it to find a friend ect. (it loops here) am i right?
You're right. Finding someone to not be shomer negiah with is the trick. And if you find "an extra," send him on over...
Best of luck to us both. Actually, to all the soulmate seekers...
ditto that! i'm needing a girl in my case but is similar. -.-;; to be made worse and better by not living in NYC -.-
I read your blog and deeply sympathize with your problems. If I may offer some advice. Hard as it may be, I would not focus on the sex/kissing aspect if I were you. I would focus on the marriage/reproduction aspect. You can kiss and have sex all your life, but you only have so many years to make babies, and for that, you must be married. Thus whatever you decide to do in regards to being S.N., make sure it does not prejudice your ability to meet a marriagable man (impossible as that sounds). So, for example, if you get into a kissing/sex/whatever relationship with a man who you would not marry, all that time you're getting kissed you're not meeting the man you might marry.
Also, where do you live? Because you have to fish where the water is deep. New York or Israel. In Jerusalem, go to Katamon, or the German Colony, orthodox singles up the kazoo.
Finally, think about how hard it has been for you to be unmarried all this time, how depressed it has made you, and keep in mind that any guys you're going to meet are also going to have all sorts of baggage from being single: be forgiving.
I wish you best of luck, and admire your dedication to halachah.
other than having defeated 35 years of sacrifice? i'm not willing to do such a thing for only 20 years why should she for 35? it would be basicaly a shalow worthless expiriance that would hurt her.
Hi, this is one of your anonymous commentors who suggested that you give up the whole SN thing. I didn't know that you said you were planning on giving it up, so I apologize for my advice. I haven't read every post so I missed when you said that. Again, sorry for the advice that you were already planning on doing.
I wish you well- I know it can't be easy to just go out and find someone to fool around with, but eventually (I'm not giving any time frame here!) it will happen.
And as for marriage- again, I won't say, You'll be married for sure by age X or in X amount of months or years. I will say, though, that I am meeting and hearing about more people who are getting married later in life. A friend in her mid-30's just got engaged, and a cousin in her late 30's just got married. It's happening way more than it used to. From your writing, it's obvious that you are intelligent, with a good head on your shoulders-and I really think it will happen for you.
I do agree with other commentors that you have to go where the action is. My cousin, after looking for many years, finally went on JDate and was engaged within a few months. Amazing, but true. I'm not saying you're not doing all you can- but like that guy said you have to make it almost like a job.
I wish you the best of luck.
Another NJB asks:
"BF, what exactly is it that makes us creepy and pathetic?"
Pathetic in its strict meaning of arousing sadness in others. As for men being creepy, hamayvin yavin.
"...Is it that rather than mope around openly depressed all our lives we make the most of the situations we are in, attempting to be happy and fulfilled?"
Heavens no, don't mope around openly depressed, at least try to conceal your depression. Sure, attempt to be happy and fulfilled, but be realistic, don't set the bar too high.
BF
I don't remember who said earlier
"Secondly, in Europe it seems to be more accepted than in Israel and the US that women have sexual desire, wishes, and phantasies as well and not only men, thus it might be easier to give some very decent and subtle hint about this in a discussion when seeing someone who has the potential of a future husband."
but not only were they missing the point of you wanting a boy friend to be tempted by rather then being hampered by the SN -[and i am in the same situation so i understand] but i should say that i live in europe, move in very modern orthodox rather than haredi circles and the question of pre marital sex is not a big topic like it appears in the USA. Call me naive [at 36!] but i was actually shocked and surprised when visiting the UWS to find that people of my own level of observance and more so were sleeping with each other [when not even dating seriously] as a matter of course. I had once read an article about so called "tefillin dates" but i thought it was an urban myth. the only circumstances when i that happens here is when one person is a lot less frum than the other or when they are engaged [maybe].
Please come to europe, they are actually quite a number of single boys here [unfortunatly none that are suitable for me but that is just me ] most of them are perfectly nice and a lot less judgemental, materialistic than many American boys that i have met.
BTW the way to get thru'the loneliness is to friends and i know that it is difficult they keep going off and getting married [good for them - sad for you/us] but you have to find more and enjoy their support company. the trick [and i know its the worst bit] is not to obsess about the situation and being with other people doing normal social things really helps.
Married shmarried. Learn to love yourself.
I just wanted to say to you that I have read your whole blog, and though I am in no way in the same situation for you, I feel for you and appreciate your candor and guts to talk about this sensitive issue.
I think the idea of getting a pet is a really good idea. My husband and I suffered from infertility for a number of years, and after a few years without kids, he convinced me to get a dog. It was one of the best decisions I ever made. We have a wonderful Labrador retriever. Please consider doing some research, talk to dog owners, breaders, read books, etc, and you may fine a canine companion who will be a friend to you. There's nothing like coming home to a dog who greets you with a smile and a wagging tail.
I know being a dog owner won't "solve" your issues. At the same time, it will hopefully bring you some companionship and warmth that will be there on a daily basis.
All the best and I wish you much happiness. Good Luck!
I don’t know you. Obviously in person (Ive never been to the us :) or emotionally. I know how you feel to a point. It is so strange how one person can say stuff and it can have the ability of expressing another’s a million miles away.
I’m a guy. 28, and have not been kissed since I was about 20.
As a kid I to went on camps, and had heard rumors of guys and girls, but it never crossed my mind, and ironically, I was dumped by a rabbis daughter cause I would not kiss her.
But then, within a couple of years I lost all self control and well, had a little stint at all the stuff mummy wouldn’t be happy with.
So why am I writing.
Well, the point is... (I think there is one. or perhaps I just want to share - unless that ukshan writes a post after me then I will disappear.)
… That I went to yeshiva and just like that I stopped going out with girls but this for the last 8 years has been a living hell.
I know what it is like to kiss and hold a girl. It didn’t get much more then this but the point is I stopped everything out of choice.
I stopped my music, my less frum friends, my music, lifestyle, and everything I had developed late teens. Ok, my point. I too find it so hard at times to be frum, the benching, and the davening – yes, I don’t get up for shacheris even on Shabos.
It is just not so high up on my list of important things to do. There are main mitzvot like kashrus, Shabos, and the s.n issues that for goodness sake, how is a person supposed to continue to fit in to the way of yiddishkeit it the way has move the goalposts and left you behind. Yiddishkeit is the environment as well (not only family).
Hashem is obviously crying over the plight of His people however, SO ARE WE?
We are not the Avos, and personally I can’t wait till I’m 99 or whatever.
I don’t want to have a wife of 100 even if she does manage to give birth.
For me it isn’t the washing for bread, it’s the mobile (cellular) on Shabos. The lights are not issues for me.
I like socializing with the non-Jews precisely because they actually don’t have a certain – je’ne Sais qua (Spelling). I don’t want to marry or anything a non-Jew ever. Infact, I am a guy with real strong physical emotions and I am proud to be frum.
There is always a but, and here it is, can a person always be as strong as they appear to be.
My mother told me never judge how wealthy a person is till you see his bank balance, but the truth is, for my friends and me, you don’t know where somebody is holding until you see their olam Habbah account.
Perhaps Hashem would consider doing something soon.
one thing i know, Dont ever judge another person till you have been in their position.
But with this, one should know that the strength of a human BEING has never failed to make me privilaged to be sharing the same world.
"idle hands are the devil's tools"
I just wanted to say that your blog has helped give me the courage to get married, and stop coming up with reasons why the girl I'm dating is not the 'perfect' match, because I realize now that she is...
much hatzlacha . . . mazal tov. your comment made my day. that is great news. Tell me, how did my blog help you come to that conclusion? Thank you.
Dear Nice Jewish Girl,
If you are still in the same situation now, wanted to offer a suggestion. Find a nice man in a similar situation to you. There are plenty. He doesn't have to be your soulmate or a perfect match or perfect-looking or someone to spend forever with or anything like that, but he does have to be kind, and considerate, and responsible, and religious as you are. Someone you can hang out with for a while and feel comfortable.
Don't be afraid to advertise on the internet. There are men in a situation similar to yours, and don't be afraid to go looking for them.
Vet those who answer your add. Get to know him a little. Shaperoned dates and shomer negiah would be an excellent idea for meeting a relative stranger. Make sure you are safe and that he is who he says he is.
Discuss your plans with each other before you do what I proposed. Go into it open-eyed, clear with each other that this is what you are doing.
Get married. Not a perfect wedding, a simple one. And a religious one. Follow all the rules. Meet his family, everything.
Sign a very specific pre-nuptial agreement with provisions for requiring a religious divorce (get) if at all possible under the law of your state. Consult a lawyer.
Enjoy your wedding and your honeymoon.
Have sex. Lots of it. Be very clear with each other that you want this from each other. Take comfort as well as well as joy in each other. Do not be afraid to do this. If either or you get sick or lose a job, take care of each other. Treat your marriage with respect.
Spend a pre-agreed amount of time together -- a year might be a good idea. At the end of that time, decide whether you want to continue. Get divorced if the person is someone you really don't want to spend a life with. (Agree that this is what you'll be doing in advance). On the other hand, the person might just be someone to have children and a life together. Perfection is not always everything it's cracked up to be, and if the man has been good and kind to you in this relationship he may be the right person to stay with after all. Either way, you'll be better off having had the comfort and joy of being together and sexual with a man, and you'll feel better about yourself and be able to make better choices.
You have invested an enormous amount in your religion, and you might feel better in the long run staying within its requirements. But don't feel afraid to find creative ways to go after what you want.
Just a suggestion, for whatever it's worth.
Anonymous Reader
hi, I came here almost by chance and having been reading your posts for hrs. Your writing and your experiences have resonated with me, I'm Jewish, unmarried, and depressed and haven't heard anybody better express my views on this issue like you do. I don't presume to know how you feel, I don't know anything about your life, but your words give me courage... for the first time in my life I feel somebody understands. I'm not orthodox and unfortunately none of the people in my social circle and at work would understand how it feels for me to know that I've spend my twenties alone, untouched, depressed and yet haven't found anybody when everyone around me has had multiple dates by this age.Being alone, and untouched,at this age is a torture, an affliction to the soul I have to work hard to fight against and remain sane and hopeful. I too have had persistent thoughts about sex, then about giving birth, and those thoughts have stayed with me, are always with me, from the moment I wake up and look out the window to the moment I fall asleep, often in tears, because I have this feeling that I shouldnt have to suffer any more, I've been living alone for a decade, havent been intimate with anybody even though I'm attractive, and yet, the pain is too strong for me. Please write more often, I have nobody.
hi, I came here almost by chance and having been reading your posts for hrs. Your writing and your experiences have resonated with me, I'm Jewish, unmarried, and depressed and haven't heard anybody better express my views on this issue like you do. I don't presume to know how you feel, I don't know anything about your life, but your words give me courage... for the first time in my life I feel somebody understands. I'm not orthodox and unfortunately none of the people in my social circle and at work would understand how it feels for me to know that I've spend my twenties alone, untouched, depressed and yet haven't found anybody when everyone around me has had multiple dates by this age.Being alone, and untouched,at this age is a torture, an affliction to the soul I have to work hard to fight against and remain sane and hopeful. I too have had persistent thoughts about sex, then about giving birth, and those thoughts have stayed with me, are always with me, from the moment I wake up and look out the window to the moment I fall asleep, often in tears, because I have this feeling that I shouldnt have to suffer any more, I've been living alone for a decade, havent been intimate with anybody even though I'm attractive, and yet, the pain is too strong for me. Please write more often, I have nobody.
Your writing and your experiences have resonated with me, I'm Jewish, unmarried, and depressed and haven't heard anybody better express my views on this issue like you do. I don't presume to know how you feel, I don't know anything about your life, but your words give me courage.. I went to http://www.myglobalmatch.com and found someone that was just right for me.
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