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What pleases me about most of the comments which other people have left here is that almost everyone is trying to help me. Though, I wish I could confront in person the person who said that vibrators raise expectations too much. Did that person read my blog? I have a choice between shall we say “relieving the tension” myself or committing suicide. That commenter is a self righteous person and I will not write the other names I mentally have for him.
However most of the commenters seem to be nice people who are trying to help me but are missing the mark so I will explain something. Many of you have suggested that I find a middle ground between being S.N. and having sex. If I understand you correctly you are suggesting that I stop being S.N. and get hugs and cuddles from my next boyfriend so that at least I will have some physical contact with another person.
That is a nice suggestion but it supposes that soon I will have a man in my life with whom that is an option. Perhaps you do not understand what it means to be 34 and a single Orthodox woman. It is like applying for a good job and you find out that there are 25 other applicants just as qualified as you are. Everywhere I look are wonderful Orthodox women, and not enough men. The shadchanim say not just to me but also to my friends “I will put you on my list but there are not enough men so it may be a long time before I set you up.” My married friends say “I am sorry, ________, but I cannot think of anyone for you nor for any of our other single woman friends.” Sometimes they say that they know a few men but the men are too picky or do not seem interested in a meaningful relationship and also there is the problem that my friends and I are socially adapted and sometimes the men are not. The local shidduch club announced that they no longer accept profiles of women, only men. I go to singles events and the men are outnumbered 2 to 1 or 3 to 1. The men on dating websites who are my age want a younger woman who will be able to have more children, and the men 10 years older than I am also want a younger woman who will be able to have more children. At least that is what some of them tell me in their responses to my emails if they respond at all. The ones who write to me first usually are in their fifties.
Still I persevere. For the last few years I had about 2 or 3 new dates per year. Usually after one or two dates with a man if he is anywhere close to what I am looking for I am willing to continue dating even if there are many differences between us because I am willing to try to make something work - but always the men move on to the next person on their list. The last time I had what could be called a boyfriend was when I was 27. More about my previous boyfriends in a later post perhaps.
To be happy I need a way I think to explain my life to myself so that I can feel shalem (whole) about it. Yes I might get married or at least have a nice relationship for a while but I cannot count on it. I need to find a way to say “Even if I die a virgin, the story of my life is still a happy story.” At the moment I do not feel that. When I look ahead at a lifetime of being alone, I wonder why God put me here, and why He would be so cruel as to put me in a community that values marital sex so much when He knew I might never have it.
My other option I think is to start dating men who are not Orthodox at all and have no plans to be. The idea scares me a little bit because of course they would expect physical contact right away and I am not used to that. I do not know how I would tell them that I want to wait at least a few dates before touching, and I want to wait until I get married to have sex. I suppose if the man were sensitive enough I would be able to tell him and maybe he would walk away or maybe not. The bigger issue is that I want to have a Shomer Shabbos home. I want to raise my children if I ever have any to believe that Torah and mitzvos are important. I do not want to be married to someone who does not really believe in Torah. I do not need a man who is exactly religiously like me but being Orthodox is a very big lifestyle commitment. How could I be with someone who does not share it at least in some minimal way? How can a Shomer Negiah girl date someone who is not even Orthodox? Even if I decided to try I am not sure how I would go about doing such a thing.
However most of the commenters seem to be nice people who are trying to help me but are missing the mark so I will explain something. Many of you have suggested that I find a middle ground between being S.N. and having sex. If I understand you correctly you are suggesting that I stop being S.N. and get hugs and cuddles from my next boyfriend so that at least I will have some physical contact with another person.
That is a nice suggestion but it supposes that soon I will have a man in my life with whom that is an option. Perhaps you do not understand what it means to be 34 and a single Orthodox woman. It is like applying for a good job and you find out that there are 25 other applicants just as qualified as you are. Everywhere I look are wonderful Orthodox women, and not enough men. The shadchanim say not just to me but also to my friends “I will put you on my list but there are not enough men so it may be a long time before I set you up.” My married friends say “I am sorry, ________, but I cannot think of anyone for you nor for any of our other single woman friends.” Sometimes they say that they know a few men but the men are too picky or do not seem interested in a meaningful relationship and also there is the problem that my friends and I are socially adapted and sometimes the men are not. The local shidduch club announced that they no longer accept profiles of women, only men. I go to singles events and the men are outnumbered 2 to 1 or 3 to 1. The men on dating websites who are my age want a younger woman who will be able to have more children, and the men 10 years older than I am also want a younger woman who will be able to have more children. At least that is what some of them tell me in their responses to my emails if they respond at all. The ones who write to me first usually are in their fifties.
Still I persevere. For the last few years I had about 2 or 3 new dates per year. Usually after one or two dates with a man if he is anywhere close to what I am looking for I am willing to continue dating even if there are many differences between us because I am willing to try to make something work - but always the men move on to the next person on their list. The last time I had what could be called a boyfriend was when I was 27. More about my previous boyfriends in a later post perhaps.
To be happy I need a way I think to explain my life to myself so that I can feel shalem (whole) about it. Yes I might get married or at least have a nice relationship for a while but I cannot count on it. I need to find a way to say “Even if I die a virgin, the story of my life is still a happy story.” At the moment I do not feel that. When I look ahead at a lifetime of being alone, I wonder why God put me here, and why He would be so cruel as to put me in a community that values marital sex so much when He knew I might never have it.
My other option I think is to start dating men who are not Orthodox at all and have no plans to be. The idea scares me a little bit because of course they would expect physical contact right away and I am not used to that. I do not know how I would tell them that I want to wait at least a few dates before touching, and I want to wait until I get married to have sex. I suppose if the man were sensitive enough I would be able to tell him and maybe he would walk away or maybe not. The bigger issue is that I want to have a Shomer Shabbos home. I want to raise my children if I ever have any to believe that Torah and mitzvos are important. I do not want to be married to someone who does not really believe in Torah. I do not need a man who is exactly religiously like me but being Orthodox is a very big lifestyle commitment. How could I be with someone who does not share it at least in some minimal way? How can a Shomer Negiah girl date someone who is not even Orthodox? Even if I decided to try I am not sure how I would go about doing such a thing.
posted by Shomer Negiah at 3/29/2005 07:16:00 AM
32 Comments:
Never having been Orthodox, I wasn't even aware of the concept of shmirat negiah until a few years ago, so, obviously, I've never been in your boat. Still, even after many years as a married woman, I remember all too well what it was like to be single. It was a living hell. I once went over a year without sex, and I thought I was going to go out of my mind. So it's painful for me even to *think* about what you must be going through.
Why some men think that only *they* have sex on the brain is beyond my comprehension. Do they think that women are not human? I only wish that I could offer you something other than my sincere hope that you find a shidduch soon.
A. Nony. Mouse
You can join us over in the committed progressive Judaism dating pool... the pickings aren't really much fatter (women also outnumber men), but nice people all around and hey, some people do find people.
It's funny I am sort of in your boat although I'm not orthodox or SN. I'm 25 and a virgin because at first I was waiting til I was ready, and now I'm waiting til it feels right (ie with a man I care about who cares about me), and things aren't looking so optimistic here either, and I very much empathize with your feelings.
Anyway, I have to say that I think there are plenty of men out there who will understand waiting to be intimate (whatever 'stage' of intimate), even secular men. Basically they're the decent ones who want to be with someone who really likes them. It also seems to me that people are more open to building and negotiating relationships, rather than stepping into "boyfriend"/"girlfriend" shaped molds.
Don't limit yourself. There are lots of us who would become frum for the woman we love. I would date a frum woman, SN and all, if she was the right one. Why not? To many in the dating world have boundries in their profiles ("you must love my cat, too") or other stuff which is mind boggling. Yes, you need someone who would be frum, that makes sense, but to assume that that is too much for a guy to change ... well I disagree. Some would, some wouldn't. There are so many qualities more important to me than if she keeps Shabbat or not.
Hi,
My friend sent me a link to your blog & I am happy she did. We are basically the same age and although I have 'slipped' occasionally and on a very limited basis, I grew up Orthodox & have basically been SN my whole life. It is really really hard.
What is scary is I could have written something identical to your last post. I feel so similar to you and have many SN Female friends who feel the same way. About dating, the lack of serious guys, the future, asking Hashem all the time - why, why, why? It is a tragedy in the Orthodox Jewish community that we have to suffer.
But I do want to give you Chizuk. Being SN is the right thing to do. Having a casual physical relationship without love & a committment- in my opinion will not help. It has made me feel so empty. Worse than the emptiness I feel being alone.
If you can, I would not spend so much time worrying that you will not be good in bed or that you will not like sex. One kindness Hashem did give us is the ability to learn and improve. Also much of sexuality is very instinctive - you will know what to do when the time comes. If not, there are plenty of books on the subject and it may be something you will have to work on with your partner. But to me that sounds like fun. I do worry that my future husband will not be interested in sex as much as I am - what I call the Roper syndrome if you remember the show - Three's Company - where Mrs. Roper was always begging her husband for sex and he wasn't interested in her. I think (hope is more honest) that you can find that out about a guy beforehand. It is a topic I have brought up during one of the few serious relationships I have had. Even guys who also have been SN or close to it have a sense if they are interested in sex or not - I think you can tell. By how they look at you, how they respond when you come close, how comfortable they are with their bodies, with talking about sex, etc. It is a tough balance between having open & adult conversations about what will be an important part of your relationship & being Tzanuah and haveing a relationship based on Kedushah.
I also think about sex very often and I think that it is perfectly normal. I am a very touchy person and it is so painful not having physical contact in my life. If you can afford it I would go for a massage every once in a while to become more comfortable with your body & being touched. Walk around naked inside your apartment. Even if it is a female - being touched is being touched. I also would spend time with children - family or friends. Children do not have the hang-ups about being touched that many adults do and will allow you to pick them up, tickle them etc. Obviously, this is not a substitute for sexual intimacy, but I find it helps fill an emotional void that not having a family creates.
I applaud your openness. Keep it up & please try to keep davening. I am too. I bless both of us that Hashem help find us our bashert soon and inthe meanwhile give us the stregth to be SN & b'simcha!
All the best,
A friend!
Hi,
My friend sent me a link to your blog & I am happy she did. We are basically the same age and although I have 'slipped' occasionally and on a very limited basis, I grew up Orthodox & have basically been SN my whole life. It is really really hard.
What is scary is I could have written something identical to your last post. I feel so similar to you and have many SN Female friends who feel the same way. About dating, the lack of serious guys, the future, asking Hashem all the time - why, why, why? It is a tragedy in the Orthodox Jewish community that we have to suffer.
But I do want to give you Chizuk. Being SN is the right thing to do. Having a casual physical relationship without love & a committment- in my opinion will not help. It has made me feel so empty. Worse than the emptiness I feel being alone.
If you can, I would not spend so much time worrying that you will not be good in bed or that you will not like sex. One kindness Hashem did give us is the ability to learn and improve. Also much of sexuality is very instinctive - you will know what to do when the time comes. If not, there are plenty of books on the subject and it may be something you will have to work on with your partner. But to me that sounds like fun. I do worry that my future husband will not be interested in sex as much as I am - what I call the Roper syndrome if you remember the show - Three's Company - where Mrs. Roper was always begging her husband for sex and he wasn't interested in her. I think (hope is more honest) that you can find that out about a guy beforehand. It is a topic I have brought up during one of the few serious relationships I have had. Even guys who also have been SN or close to it have a sense if they are interested in sex or not - I think you can tell. By how they look at you, how they respond when you come close, how comfortable they are with their bodies, with talking about sex, etc. It is a tough balance between having open & adult conversations about what will be an important part of your relationship & being Tzanuah and haveing a relationship based on Kedushah.
I also think about sex very often and I think that it is perfectly normal. I am a very touchy person and it is so painful not having physical contact in my life. If you can afford it I would go for a massage every once in a while to become more comfortable with your body & being touched. Walk around naked inside your apartment. Even if it is a female - being touched is being touched. I also would spend time with children - family or friends. Children do not have the hang-ups about being touched that many adults do and will allow you to pick them up, tickle them etc. Obviously, this is not a substitute for sexual intimacy, but I find it helps fill an emotional void that not having a family creates.
I applaud your openness. Keep it up & please try to keep davening. I am too. I bless both of us that Hashem help find us our bashert soon and inthe meanwhile give us the stregth to be SN & b'simcha!
All the best,
A friend!
Hi,
My friend sent me a link to your blog & I am happy she did. We are basically the same age and although I have 'slipped' occasionally and on a very limited basis, I grew up Orthodox & have basically been SN my whole life. It is really really hard.
What is scary is I could have written something identical to your last post. I feel so similar to you and have many SN Female friends who feel the same way. About dating, the major lack of serious men, the future, asking Hashem all the time - why, why, why? It is a tragedy in the Orthodox Jewish community that we have to suffer.
But I do want to give you Chizuk. Being SN is the right thing to do. Having a casual physical relationship without love & a commitment- in my opinion will not help. It has made me feel so empty. Worse than the emptiness I feel being alone.
If you can, I would not spend so much time worrying that you will not be good in bed or that you will not like sex. One kindness Hashem did give us is the ability to learn and improve. Also much of sexuality is very instinctive - you will know what to do when the time comes. If not, there are plenty of books on the subject and it may be something you will have to work on with your partner. But to me that sounds like fun. I do worry that my future husband will not be interested in sex as much as I am - what I call the Roper syndrome if you remember the show - Three's Company - where Mrs. Roper was always begging her husband for sex and he wasn't interested in her. I think (hope is more honest) that you can find that out about a guy beforehand. It is a topic I have brought up during one of the few serious relationships I have had. Even guys who also have been SN or close to it have a sense if they are interested in sex or not - I think you can tell. By how they look at you, how they respond when you come close, how comfortable they are with their bodies, with talking about sex, etc. It is a tough balance between having open & adult conversations about what will be an important part of your relationship & being Tzanuah and having a relationship based on Kedushah.
I also think about sex very often and I think that it is perfectly normal. I am a very touchy person and it is so painful not having physical contact in my life. If you can afford it I would go for a massage every once in a while to become more comfortable with your body & being touched. Walk around naked inside your apartment. Even if it is a female - being touched is being touched. I also would spend time with children - family or friends. Children do not have the hang-ups about being touched that many adults do and will allow you to pick them up, tickle them etc. Obviously, this is not a substitute for sexual intimacy, but I find it helps fill an emotional void that not having a family creates.
I applaud your openness. Keep it up & please try to keep davening. I am too. I bless both of us that Hashem help find us our bashert soon and in the meanwhile give us the strength to be SN & b'simcha!
All the best,
A friend!
I have absolutely no advice for you, but it sounds like you are a really sweet person and I am rooting for you to find your bashert soon.
Perhaps it will happen in the zchus of you publicizing a very painful but not uncommon topic.
There are men who are Torah Observant that are not SN.
I am not SN, but I once went 6 years without anyone asking me out at all (and so nothing else happened either, of course), and my dating life tends to the non-existent, and so I am sitting here reading your postings and thinking "yes, been there. Done that. Yep, know the feeling".
Your situation is more "extreme", but it is also probably far more universal than you realize. Kol haKavod to you for being brave enough to talk about it.
You have brought out into the open a very real and difficult issue. It is part and parcel of the continuing saga of "older singles". While I am happily married, I can not envision that what you and other single males and females have to go through. While sex certainly should not be the basis for a relationship it still is a very important aspect of really becoming one with your partner. I know at least one guy who probably lives in your vicinity and is a little older than you. He's great and would love to get married. contact me at elliottcahan@yahoo.com for more details.
My other option I think is to start dating men who are not Orthodox at all and have no plans to be. The idea scares me a little bit because of course they would expect physical contact right away and I am not used to that. I do not know how I would tell them that I want to wait at least a few dates before touching, and I want to wait until I get married to have sex.
You are such a beautiful person. There are a lot of men out there that are not of your religion, but are very caring and incredibly sensitive. I've dated these men in the past. It never worked out but I've always hoped they could find someone that they would feel, as you say, shalem with. Reading your words has made me happy, and I hope they are able to find a women such as yourself.
Do you really think that "putting out" will make a man more inclined to marry you?
Do you really want that kind of man as a husband?
Do you really think that "putting out" will make a man more inclined to marry you?
Do you really want that kind of man as a husband?
Is there a way to contact you via e-mail?
Send us your picture and profile! We'll kiss you lonng time!
Yeah, there's plenty of us non-orthodox guys out there who are sensitive and great. We might not be sporting the borsolino, but for the right woman, an eyshes chayil, maybe someone can recognize the beauty she sees in stricter adherence to our traditions. its amazing what love can open the doors to... Find a Conservative guy- he'll know how to keep kosher and Shabbes, even if he doesn't presently, and might have an open mind about getting frummer.
Here is an idea you may want to consider. Date Conservative Rabbinic Students. Most of them are Shomer Shabbat, believe in Halacha (although not the way you see it) and would respect a SN woman (officially, they are not to be engaging in premarital sex).
Having worked with many Conservative Rabbinic students, many are looking for an observant woman, one who is willing to keep shabbat, taharrat hamishpachah, etc. The only like minded type of women are fellow rabbinic students.
A good friend and co-worker of mine (Jewish, but not observant) has been married already for nine years to a strictly orthodox man. It is not easy for both of them to negotiate their way of life. She has to keep kashruth and shabbath. He has to accept that she refuses to go to the mikwa after feeling humiliated by the experience. However, from what I see (our families are quite close, our kids go to the same kindergarden and school) the effort is well worth it. I don't know whether the fact that this happens in Israel is in any way significant.
Just wanted to tell you, maybe you could start thinking about non-Orthodox partners after all?
Discussion about you on www.jewlicious.com at http://www.jewlicious.com/index.php?p=944.
There's a poster there called Dave who is Orthodox and seeking a partner. He's 46 and a very nice man.
start attending services @ your local Chabad. You'll find many guys with a growing commitment and a fresher outlook. Also start wearing shorter skirts
Maybe consider moving to a new area - mishaneh mokom, mishaneh mazal !
Hatzlocho !
I want mostly to respond to a few posters above and say that while I'm not SN, I'm observant-ish Conservative, I *do* have a fairly high standard for intimate touching, and I also repel guys with the power of my mind. (Just kidding. Maybe.) I didn't date much, and after a few minor experiments in college I became certain I didn't just want to "hook up." So I stayed a virgin until I was 29 -- getting more and more self-conscious about it -- and then I met this nice Jewish guy who, it turned out, felt the same way for the same reasons. We are almost obscenely happy that we are each other's first and only sexual partner. And, yes, we're still going at it like bunnies.
"I don't know whether the fact that this happens in Israel is in any way significant."
of course - much harder in the us.
"More about my previous boyfriends in a later post perhaps."
I think this would be helpful to understand the singles crises a bit better. As in why a wonderful person like you would have trouble finding a mate. I don't mean to sound sarcastic - I really mean that. Because as you say the real underlying problem isnt SN or not SN, it's that no one plans to be SN for life, they plan to marry...
I am with the others who support broadening your horizons and dating observant Conservative men (men who keep Shabbat and kashrut, men who would expect to follow taharat hamishpacha). They exist out there, although rarer than "non-observant Conservative" people. And their values may not be as different from you as you might think. (Many of them, if not Conservative rabbinic students, are children of Conservative rabbis and grew up in traditional households.)
oy! Hashem yirachem!
How can you suggest that any religious jew go out with (marry?!) someone who identifies with a movement that allows its believers to think the torah is man-made?!?! (And what kind of effect do you think that'd have on the children?!)
I know that several people here have suggested it, but I'm wondering if they don't understand the differences between torah judaism and its rivals. because for the life of me, no matter how hard I try, I seriously cannot fathom how someone would suggest that. I just can't.
(The following, I grant you, may be my own extreme opinion.)
not only that, but I would even say that their "rabbinic students" are the worst of all! I mean, 99% of them are simply ignorant and perhaps tinokim shenishba, so, you can't really blame them. but the "rabbinic students", they're the ones really perpetuating those false ideas and they're the ones who should know better. They're the ones who continue to skew the torah and traditions, and based on the trend in conservatism (as well as reform) in the last 40 years, they're the ones who are making things even worse and even more removed from authentic torah values than their predecessors.
look, NJG is an incredible and good person, and I'm sure -- 100% sure -- that her bashert is out there and I pray daily (honestly) that she'll find him soon. there's no reason to toss her toward anything with a bris!
but that's just my opinion. (and before anyone dismisses it, I hope they'll at least try to see my POV.)
Here, here on the suggestion that you date religious Conservative Jews and Conservative Rabbinical Students. I know people who go to or graduated from JTS and they are like borderline Modern Orthodox. In fact not even borderline because I have met people born and raised in Orthodox homes who still call themselves religious who are as observant and sometimes slightly less observant than these so-called Orthodox Jews.
Lastly, the Conservative movement, as I understand it, does NOT say that the Torah in man-made. That's more like the Reform movement. The Conservative movement takes Halacha seriously, but interprets it more in line with the needs of the modern Jew both in Israel and teh Diaspora. For instance, teh Conservative movement says it's OK to drive on Shabbes, thoug generally only to get to shul (as many American Jews live in suburbs where teh shul is far away and they must drive to get there) BUT the Masorti movement (the Israeli Conservative movement) does NOT allow driving on Shabbat even if you are driving to shul because there is a shul on every other block in Israel.
I guy I knew in Israel who was born and raised religious in a Modern Orthodox YU-type family in Rockland County and is single and in his mid-30s decided (after much resistance to the idea) to date a Conservative Rabbinical student and was very happy with her. I really thought they were going to get married. They ended up breaking up (her idea) because she didn't think he was sensual enough (and they were sort of Shomer N'gi'ah lite, so as far as I know they didn't make out or anything, but I think they shared light kisses). I think you should try this approach, too.
If you live in NYC, try Hadar: www.kehilathadar.org.
Wrt finding a date as an older woman: do you really think it is easier for men? I have a guy friend who is a little older than you and he gets told all the time how favorable the ratio of women to men is, so in theory he should be able to find lots of suitable dates, but they just aren't there.
Market failure, I guess.
Excellent Shomer Negiah!!!
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I have a relationship tip site/blog.
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