I am OK.
I just had to spend an hour deleting comments. Some I deleted for various reasons but in particular I deleted the argument at the end of the last post, where a commenter was pretending to be the "blog admin" and was also pretending to be other commenters. That is not nice! I believe there is something called "netiquette" and pretending to be other commenters is not part of it! Please everyone, the only "blog administrator" on this blog are me and one very loyal friend who helped me set up the blog. But she does not make any changes to the blog unless I ask for her help in changing something. So really the only person running things is me.
Since the comments are sometimes ridiculous and disprespectful I will try for a little while to moderate them. So from now on your comment will first come to me and I will decide whether it will go on the blog. It is unfortunate that I have to do this since I anticipate that it will be time-consuming.
Of course I will allow supportive comments to go up. But I will also usually allow comments that are critical of my decisions as long as they are written in a way that is respectful to me and to the other commenters. I cannot give a definite rule, just that if I feel challenged it will go up but if I feel insulted or do not like it for some other reason it will not go up.
I will have to write at length some other time about my current feelings about negiah but here is a little more information for all of you to think about and argue over in the comments (that now I will moderate.)
First of all, we never had sex. East Side Bubby is certainly a sanctimonious person for jumping to that conclusion and I am very glad that she is not my Bubby. Remember the relationship was short, a little bit troubled, and conducted over a distance of hundreds of miles. We did not even get to see each other in person too many times. In fact that first time we kissed was probably the steamiest thing we ever did. It was all very innocent. A little kissing, a little cuddling, a little hand-holding. That was all I needed and wanted at the time.
Second he definitely never pressured me to do more than I was ready for. The idea that we broke up because I would not agree to his physical demands could not be more untrue. He was very protective of me and also of himself when it came to that. We both knew there were problems in the relationship and wanted to take it slow.
Another thing I must say is that I am definitely not regretful that I "wasted" or "gave away" my first kiss to someone who later it didn't work out with. The negiah aspect of our relationship was wonderful and just what I needed at that time. He was a gentleman in every way, I will always treasure those memories. Especially since the alternative was to be Shomer Negiah with him . . . and you all know how I was feeling about that before we went out. I just could not do it. I did not have it in me. If we had been SN, I would be writing a post saying how I wasted an opportunity to find out how it feels and to finally be held. I am very glad I took my chance and that I chose to take the chance with a nice man who was patient and very sweet to me.
Fourth I will not detail the reasons that we broke up but I hope everyone realizes that relationships are complicated and negiah was just a tiny piece of a much bigger and more complicated puzzle. People have histories and expectations, and there are many stresses that people have to be able to work through, especially if you are older and have already done many things with your life. Does it really matter why we broke up or whether it was his decision or my decision? The important thing is that we could not overcome the problems that we had. But I will be grateful always that he came into my life when he did.
I am feeling OK. Yes I do resent and feel angry over some of the things he did. I did feel hopeful about him for a while and it hurts when your hope is broken. It hurts a lot. But I see very clearly that I am not meant to be with him and it is OK. I see very clearly that Hashem sent him to me as a gift for the time that I had him in my life, if for no reason than just to make sure I got some kisses and cuddles before I lost my mind.
I have been thinking about many questions such as whether I would want to be SN in my next relationship. Every day is a new one, just because I made certain decisions now does not mean they would still be the right ones later. But of course with things the way they are it might be 10 years or more until my next relationship. That is very scary. I am also nervous about what will happen when the memories of this relationship fade a little, if I might go back to feeling desperately frustrated, physically.
But remember that there are many things in my life besides the fact that I have changed from "never been kissed" to "kissed just a little." I am busy making some other big decisions about my employment and possibly moving! My family and friends have been very good to me. So really I am OK. You do not have to feel sorry for me. I am OK.
Since the comments are sometimes ridiculous and disprespectful I will try for a little while to moderate them. So from now on your comment will first come to me and I will decide whether it will go on the blog. It is unfortunate that I have to do this since I anticipate that it will be time-consuming.
Of course I will allow supportive comments to go up. But I will also usually allow comments that are critical of my decisions as long as they are written in a way that is respectful to me and to the other commenters. I cannot give a definite rule, just that if I feel challenged it will go up but if I feel insulted or do not like it for some other reason it will not go up.
I will have to write at length some other time about my current feelings about negiah but here is a little more information for all of you to think about and argue over in the comments (that now I will moderate.)
First of all, we never had sex. East Side Bubby is certainly a sanctimonious person for jumping to that conclusion and I am very glad that she is not my Bubby. Remember the relationship was short, a little bit troubled, and conducted over a distance of hundreds of miles. We did not even get to see each other in person too many times. In fact that first time we kissed was probably the steamiest thing we ever did. It was all very innocent. A little kissing, a little cuddling, a little hand-holding. That was all I needed and wanted at the time.
Second he definitely never pressured me to do more than I was ready for. The idea that we broke up because I would not agree to his physical demands could not be more untrue. He was very protective of me and also of himself when it came to that. We both knew there were problems in the relationship and wanted to take it slow.
Another thing I must say is that I am definitely not regretful that I "wasted" or "gave away" my first kiss to someone who later it didn't work out with. The negiah aspect of our relationship was wonderful and just what I needed at that time. He was a gentleman in every way, I will always treasure those memories. Especially since the alternative was to be Shomer Negiah with him . . . and you all know how I was feeling about that before we went out. I just could not do it. I did not have it in me. If we had been SN, I would be writing a post saying how I wasted an opportunity to find out how it feels and to finally be held. I am very glad I took my chance and that I chose to take the chance with a nice man who was patient and very sweet to me.
Fourth I will not detail the reasons that we broke up but I hope everyone realizes that relationships are complicated and negiah was just a tiny piece of a much bigger and more complicated puzzle. People have histories and expectations, and there are many stresses that people have to be able to work through, especially if you are older and have already done many things with your life. Does it really matter why we broke up or whether it was his decision or my decision? The important thing is that we could not overcome the problems that we had. But I will be grateful always that he came into my life when he did.
I am feeling OK. Yes I do resent and feel angry over some of the things he did. I did feel hopeful about him for a while and it hurts when your hope is broken. It hurts a lot. But I see very clearly that I am not meant to be with him and it is OK. I see very clearly that Hashem sent him to me as a gift for the time that I had him in my life, if for no reason than just to make sure I got some kisses and cuddles before I lost my mind.
I have been thinking about many questions such as whether I would want to be SN in my next relationship. Every day is a new one, just because I made certain decisions now does not mean they would still be the right ones later. But of course with things the way they are it might be 10 years or more until my next relationship. That is very scary. I am also nervous about what will happen when the memories of this relationship fade a little, if I might go back to feeling desperately frustrated, physically.
But remember that there are many things in my life besides the fact that I have changed from "never been kissed" to "kissed just a little." I am busy making some other big decisions about my employment and possibly moving! My family and friends have been very good to me. So really I am OK. You do not have to feel sorry for me. I am OK.
posted by Shomer Negiah at 12/11/2005 09:48:00 AM
51 Comments:
NJg -- i am glad you are doing well and that the experience, though painful, has been healthy for you.
One note, I am responsible for the comments getting out of hand. When I saw that first blog admin note (probably false) I jumped the gun and wrote something nasty which I am happy you deleted. Then I added fuel by perpetuating the string. I am glad you did not erase my original points abut people believing in themselves and in their right to be happy. I meant those comments very intensely and wrote them from very personal experience. i hope they were meaningful to people who read here because believing this concept of teshuva and that god wants all of us to be happy has has a very positive impact on my life.
NJG, I'm glad to hear you're doing well. I'm just curious - it was clear from your posts that your decision to not be SN was made before you even got to know this last guy. Was the Negiah in your last relationship something that you did because you felt it was natural for the relationship, or was it an opportunity for you to experience Negiah, regardless of the intensity of the relationship?
I'm definitely looking forward to hearing your current views of SN, both emotionally and halachicly. But most importantly, I always look forward to hearing positive news, hopefully soon, even if in small doses. Thanks for keeping with the blog!
I'm truly happy for you!
If I may say in my defense, I never thought the relationship had progressed further than touching/kissing.
I just stated than SN is always best. I think you'd like me, If you actually met me in person. I'm just a very traditional in my views.
Much hatzlacha in the future, may you find your soul mate really soon!!
I don't have anything incredible to say. I just want to thank you for sharing all of this with us all, and to tell you that your words have had an incredible impact on me during these past months. One of the hardest things for me to deal with after a breakup is the feeling of crushed possibilities, of how my hopes/expectations. And it's very hard when I don't see the good in the breakup. How do you do it?
Anyways, thanks again.
NJG, as always, you have my support. Here's to open, respectful conversations.
I dont think this SN is totally healthy or encouraging people to get married. At some point it just makes the singles isolated and akward with eachother. It's a real catch 22 once you're no longer a kid.
Didn't check this blog for a while and I'm sorry to read about the break-up ... but as you mentioned, it was great that you were able to have this experience with another person.
I appreciate your honesty & courage in sharing your life with us so openly, and I will never understand people who take that information and use it to attack you. SN is an interesting topic and I hope that in the future we can all debate it respectfully & with consideration for all the peoples involved.
As always, best of luck to you and hopefully your wait for mr. right will be a short one.
And one more thing ... reading through the comments I'm happy to see how many supportive people there are out there, and who are quick to get rid of the flamers. I hope that this community can give you all the best wishes it possibly can. ^_^
As a reader of this blog since its inception, i must say that, just like someone who follows a soap opera for many years, you get connected and invested in the situations and life of the "characters". I wish you will reconsider your descision NOT to reveal why you broke up. You can reveal it without giving away his identity and without revealing anything personal about yourself. It would help each of us understand what has been going on with you much better. Just being general helps us understand. Id ask any of my friends or even shul acquantances "what happened?" if they said they broke up.
I think that your blog has enriched the lives of many. You have dealt with very difficult questions in an honest and sensitive way.
You deserve a lot of credit.
I just wanted to add my note of thanks to you for your very open and insightful blog. It is truly liberating to have someone like yourself share so much of your personal life and challenges with us.
You are a strong woman. Your honesty has always impressed and inspired me. May you go from strength to strength. --EK
Good post--be well.
I noticed that you deleted my comment to your last post.. Hope I didnt offend you in any way..
you are a wonderful, insightful, and reflective person.
The only prob with this comment moderation is that now there can't be any discussions going on... but what can you do?? I totally understand where you're coming from!
I will respond to a few comments before I go to sleep.
Curious . . . I have been thinking and thinking about how to describe why we broke up but I cannot think of a way to do it that makes me feel comfortable about my anonymity. You see, some of my friends do not even know that this blog is me. They suspect maybe, but they do not know for sure. I am sorry. I can tell you with confidence that if I had married this man both of us would have been very unhappy in the long run.
Semgirl . . . I do not remember now what you wrote but I do know that in general you write very nice comments. So maybe I deleted it by mistake or maybe I deleted it because your comment did not make sense anymore after I had deleted so many of the ones before it. Do not worry about it too much.
Evian . . . there can still be some discussion but people will have to think more carefully about how they write their comments which can only be a good thing. Kneejerk reactions have led to ugly things.
To the person who wrote to me saying that I must be a male . . . I tried to publish your comment because I thought it is very funny but the system rejected it anyway. Too bad. I should tell you that there are other websites with discussions about whether I am "real." Of course my assurances to you that I really am a woman do not mean much if you never believed me until now! Well, it is up to you to decide.
To the person who wrote calling my decisions pitiful and saying that Halacha means nothing to me . . . If you rewrite your comment in a way that is challenging but not insulting, then I will post it. Meanwhile I point out to you: if halacha meant nothing to me, then I would not be asking whether I would be SN next time, I would be assuming that I will never be SN again. If halacha meant nothing to me I would not have been SN for 35 years now would I? I would have started dating non-halachic men years ago, no? If you had taken a moment to think about it you would have realized that. It is unfortunate that I have to moderate these comments (but liberating too I must admit!)
Datingmaster . . . I do not understand why you think I am a better person but thank you for the compliment. I am the same person I was before just a little calmer in some ways. And also I am of course disappointed that things did not and could not work out. I wish things could have been different.
Did you notice that in this past parsha Jacob didn't seem to be SN.
I am not sure what to make of this. Perhaps Rachel was only but I doubt that as he married her only 7 years later and further that would mean she died at quite an early age...Perhaps kissing was a general form of greeting at the time as may be evidenced by Laban's subsequent kiss of Jacob when he goes out to greet him, although this too I doubt as I do not recall otehr instances of kissing mentioned by greetings that aren't of intense emotion (c.f Jacob meeting Esav after being estranged for some time)...Most likely I feel that the forefathers while they observed some comandments were not required to observe the entire torah. As such Jacob was not required. This being the case, the conclusion that I draw is that even if the law is that SN is right, certainly in the absence of the law this is not the most natraul state of affairs. That is while by law we may be required to be SN it is not neccessarily true that an SN relationship is natraully satisfying. The struggle is ineluctable and it must be realized that people will at times slip as nature can generally not be perpetually transcended. That said, perhaps the merit of the law in more in the epic intent rather than the actual outcome.
What do other think?
"To the person who wrote calling my decisions pitiful and saying that Halacha means nothing to me "
Obviously Halacha means nothing to him, or he wouldnt embarrass you and hurt your feelings like that.
That is clearly an Issur Doreisa. Look in Chofetz Chaim.
As a frum guy who got married young, your blog has really opened my eyes about how difficult it is to be frum, 30+ and single. It has made me see my wife's single friends in a new light. Thanks.
I only just discovered your blog. Though I am much younger, I identify with many of the issues you are facing (being also a 'nice jewish girl'). It's not something that's talked about often, even amongst my friends, something so personal and so difficult to deal with and is often dismissed as nothing important due to other serious situations that come up in life. There is so much I'd like to say but for the moment, thank you will have to suffice as I don't have the time to write everything now. Thank you for putting yourself out there and sharing your life. Thank you for reminding me again to always have hope. Thank you for being a voice for all us SN people battling with similar issues. Thank you for reminding me to look for the best in everything, even the hardships. Thank you and best of luck for everything in the future. (another good single jewish girl, mid-twenties)
You have a heartfelt blog... Stay positive....
The way you keep on emphasizing that you are okay...you're ok... sounds like you are trying to convince yourself... can it be?
I don't understand my comments you didn't let through but when sem girl comments on an excerpt that you provided without reading the whole comment that you let through. Seems to me pretty one-sided, that you are not open to challenges.
fltbshyid . . . as you can see I am perfectly open to challenges, since I just posted your comment. But your original comment was worded in a very very nasty way. As I said in my post I am open to being challenged but not insulted. If you write comments in a way that is respectful of the fact that I am a person with feelings then I will post them even if you disagree with me.
Sounds like you're handling it just fine. I think "long-term we just weren't compatible" is a "good" reason to break-up, if there's ever a good reason, and enough information for us here, even if living vicariously through you we feel like we need more information.
Actually, I have close real-life friends who haven't given me more information than that, and we were talking about a broken engagement, not just a broken dating relationship. Sometimes, it's not anyone's business (or it's Loshen HaRa) what the actual details are.
Hatzlacha on your possible moving and those "other big decisions" -- sometimes a change in place leads to a change in Mazel. I know my last move was pretty much the hardest thing I've ever done (unmedicated labor pales in comparison) but every bit of tzoris turned out to be worth it. May you have an easier change but just as much benefit!
I think that you and your visitors could benefit greatly from hearing why this relationship had to end. There can be times in a dating relationship where red flags are heeded, and when they are not. Since you said in an earlier comment "I can tell you with confidence that if I had married this man both of us would have been very unhappy in the long run," then those red flags obviously became deal-breakers that you knew would not change.
Providing even just a couple of insights might provide a world of benefit to other singles, SN and not-SN, out there navigating those rough dating waters.
And may you find your zivug soon, I"YH.
Dr. Janice
Dr. Janice . . . Thank you for your kind wishes. I have thought about your comment. I am sure it would be helpful for some other people to hear why we broke up. We can all learn from each other. But just as I do not think it is my job to be SN just to live up to the expectations of readers who want me to be a poster child for SN, so too I do not think I have to tell my readers why we broke up if telling them will compromise my anonymity. There are people who would know immediately who I am if I wrote why we broke up, who I do not want to know that I am Nice Jewish Girl. I am doing what I can to show others what it is like to be SN, at least for me, or to not be SN anymore after being SN for a long time. I am doing the best I can to share my experiences and perspectives, but I must draw the line at a certain point.
Okay, please explain your comment that you don't know if in your next relationship you will want to be SN. Do you agree that halacha says you have to be SN, yes or no? Do you look at your kiss as a slip or as a new lifestlye? Why do you think kissing is okay because it is just to hard for a person not to have felt this by whatever age and not for example having sex? Why should a person be deprived of that do you think G-D doesn't understand how hard it is on someone in todays society not to have sex? Where do we draw the line? What about if someone works in a Burger King and has to smell the food every day do you thing G-D will understand if he eats once in a while? These are starter questions I await your reply.
As an Orthodox Jew, I can say that I have followed your blog for some time. I hope that you will find someone to marry and have a family with. And I am sorry that you needed to break the halacha. I will try not to judge what you chose to do. I have my own peckalach that I am not proud of as well. That said, I should point out that Hashem sends us opportunities, and challenges. What you did, NJN, clear and simply was an aveira. There is no way around that. And to suggest that the pleasure that you received from this was a "gift from Hashem", it would seem to me is an insult to Hashem. He is not proud of you for this. He did not want you to do this. He understands, but that is not the same thing. It is inappropriate for you to continue ascribing Divine support for what you did.
B"H
Happy Hanukah!
Anonymous
To say that a pleasure from an aveirah is not a gift from Hashem places limits on G-d...it creates G-d in your own image.
Ruzhiner Rebbe went even further saying that:
If a worst sinner would know that even at the momement of enjoying sin he is realy serving G-d he would go made from anger...:-)
It amazes me that people here can presume what G-d does and does not understand, does and does not agree with, and what "He" is insulted by. What isinsulting is that some people are so self-righteously confident that they claim to understand the mind of G-d, and pass judgment on what is an 'Aveirah' or not (I'm talking here to the most recent 'anonymous'-- exactly what ws she "oveir"? Show me anywhere in the TORAH where kissing is prohibited. She was, at worst, in violation of a Takanah. Admirable, maybe not, but a) it's not the same thing and b) not for you to judge.)
We're all so concerned with wether someone might be kissing someone, while we cheat on our taxes, treat our neighbors with disrespect, hurt the ones we love and act without basic Detech Eretz. What NJG does is between her and her G-d.
NJGuy
Amein.. I agree with you 100000%..
Holly . . . .
That is very funny, I did not know that! Well I definitely am not a lesbian but of course people of all sexual orientations are welcome to read my blog. Thank you for stopping by.
I am in the middle of writing some new posts for this blog. Some are about how I am OK and some are about how bitter I am feeling. It depends on the day. It is hard to write these posts! Being honest with myself is not easy. I will post more when I know that I have written the truth.
"we sit outside and argue all night long about a G-d we've never seen but never fails to side me"
- "Standing outside a broken telephone booth with money in my pocket," Primitive Radio Gods
E-hugs and kisses and best wishes.
NJG,
I have been reading your blog almost since the beginning, but it had been a while since I stopped in. What a whirlwind of emotions to learn in rapid succession that you had begun dating someone, had been kissed, and had broken up. I was thrilled to hear of the dating, ecstatic to hear of the kiss, and saddened to hear of the breakup.
I continue to be amazed at how you are able to touch so many people, in so many unique ways. I, for instance, have no religious affiliation, so many of your struggles are things I cannot have experienced, but I have suffered from debilitating depression for virtually all of my life. I am very moved by your story. I admire your conviction and your humanity.
I think you are doing a beautiful thing, in sharing these elements of your life. Like everyone here, you are in my thoughts, and I wish all the best for you.
Hi NJG.
I am sorry that you broke up. I wish you the best of luck in meeting your bashert.
I remember that you mentioned that you thought that some issues were standing in your way of meeting men. Do whatever you think is right for yourself, but I do want to share a lesson that I learned after some dating trouble of my own: I always thought that I was innately big-boned and would never lose weight, but after seeing others around me lose weight, I made a concerted effort and didn't allow myself any excuses, and somehow managed to lose 6 lbs. Which isn't much, but really changed how I see myself and how others see me, and gave me a lot of hope for the future (which hopefully includes losing another 6 lbs).
Your issues may be different, and I am sure that you have inspiration all around you, but your comments earlier in your blog reminded me of something that I might have said, and I just wanted to talk back to myself, if that makes sense.
I hope that doesn't sound condescending at all. I just feel like I crossed an abyss and it wasn't that difficult, and I never would have even tried (and I mean really tried, not just made a half-hearted effort) were it not for my whim to do something good for myself after a bad dating experience.
I am sorry that you broke up...or perhaps that's not right, if the two of you would have made each other unhappy.
I hope the decisions (employment, moving) you are making now work out well and hkb"h yimale kol mishaalos libech l'tova.
I just found this blog. I have never been SG, but am taking the first steps towards dating a man who is. It wasn't intentional, I just became interested in this particular man. The idea of not touching before marriage doesn't bother me, but reading about the laws after marriage has made me cycle through a lot of suprise/anxiety/fear/anger feelings. Thank you for what you're doing. I hope reading your thoughts will help me understand what I'm feeling.
I'm glad you got kissed by someone you cared for, and you cared for you.
b'hatzlacha
NJG,
I stumbled upon your blog and then read every post you've had. I just wanted to say that you are such an intelligent, feeling, real woman - all of which I am sure you know. as I read I found myself continually impressed with your reasonings, feelings and life (at least what you have shared of it). In response to an old post, if you do ever seriously consider adopting a dog (or any pet really), www.petfinder.com is a fantastic site which connects you with shelters everywhere. Dog or no dog, I wish you all the happiness in the world. The part of yourself which you have shared - though only a part - has impacted me for some reason, even as a married woman who was never SN. For that, thank you.
Non-Jewish (actually non-religious) single 33-yo woman with quite a few physical relationships behind her, just checking in to lend some support. I really admire your convictions and your efforts to do what's right for you in this sometimes difficult world. Good for you :)
Jsirpicco . . . Who said I am crying? I just said I am OK. What you fail to realize is that when I kissed this man I did not do so with any assumption that just because we were kissing we were going to get married. Yes I want to get married but as I have written before I did not know then myself whether I want to marry HIM. I do not think it is reasonable to know that after a few weeks. But I do think it is reasonable for a 35-year-old woman who desperately wants to know what it feels like to kiss and who is not naive about the consequenses to kiss a man who is nice and has been dating her for a few weeks and seems to have some potential. It is not in accordance with halacha but it is an emotionally reasonable thing to do. I did not delude myself about the situation. I am sad now because I am back to being lonely and not knowing the future. But I do not feel taken advantage of in any way. I knew what I was doing and what the possible consequenses were, and I accept those consequenses as an adult.
I'm so sorry to hear that you are sad and lonely again. If there is anything that I can do to cheer you up , please let me know..
I'm so sorry to hear that you are sad and lonely again. If there is anything that I can do to cheer you up , please let me know..
Hang in there, beautiful!
i wish very badly there was something i could do to ease your pain in this situation, but you'd probably find 21 a bit young to even consider in any case.
HNC
I was raised as a Jew but had to go through a technical conversion process since my mother's conversion before my birth was invalid. The hardest part in the process for me was when I was told I should not touch my fiance anymore. This would have been manageable if the bet din had been willing to give me any time frame at all for when we could then complete the process and then we could get married. But they were slow and disorganized and could and would do no such thing. When we finally stopped touching (and we had been completely celibate... to our great pride while living in a world in which this isn't so easy) I became so incredibly depressed. It was one of the most helpless feelings I've ever had and it did NOT bring me closer to Hashem.
I think that touch is really important and that you shouldn't be hard on yourself (nor should others be hard on you) for needing it as much as Hashem made you need it. What to do with that need is, of course, the question. But no one expects you to be perfect.
So glad to hear from you again. I'm rooting for you!
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