We broke up
I do not want to write details about it now. I just wanted to let you know. I will write more when I have had time to process this.
posted by Shomer Negiah at 11/27/2005 01:02:00 PM
Sunday, November 27, 2005
About Me
- Name: Shomer Negiah
- Location: United States
United States. Female. 34. Never been kissed.That is all you know about me, and all you need to know.
If you are here for the first time please read the first two posts first. Welcome.
Email me at shomernegiah (at) gmail (dot) com.
Previous Posts
- How to contact me
- My blog is a dance!
- Many notes and an apology
- Nice Jewish Girl has been kissed
- Taking The Chance
- Answers to readers questions
- Maybe soon
- Comments
- Update
- Lessons
111 Comments:
SORRY
Was I the only one who saw it coming?
The "religious" guy touches you, abuses your SN views,
then he'll never be the man of your dreams, he's not a match for someone with a firm grip on his hashkafa.
Probably touched previous dates too
like most men, he just wanted to get into your pants.
I dont know any happily married couple that were not SN before.
Somehow the mutual respect that is needed in a marriage, starts during dating, from polite compliments and being SN
You can do better!
Keep the faith!!
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
I'm so sorry...I experience a similar situation. Boy meets girl. girl lets boy touch girl. Boy is satisfied, and girl gets her heart broken and a shttered image of frum men as a whole. I'm so sorry you went through what I did.
I'm so sorry. I was rooting for you. I wish you strength to get through this...and I hope your bashert is looking for you just as eagerly as you're looking for him.
Remember, bashert is something that's meant to be. If this relationship ended, that's meant to be as well.
Breaking up sucks, no matter how long it is, or how good it was. You get past it, even if you never forget the people who were once so important to you.
Here's to feeling better and making strides toward what is truly meant to be.
East side bubby:
I know many, many happily married couples who were physical before marriage. Some are grandparents, just like you. Some were never "SN," and some were at the beginning, but "messed up." And I suspect you know many such couples as well, but they are probably not discussing their "lapses" with someone as judgmental and sanctimonious-sounding as you.
How dare you presume to judge a person - TWO people - you have never met. You know only the most minimal details about either of them. How do you know there was no "mutual respect?" And how dare you suggest that a couple who is physical before marriage automatically and necessarily lacks the "mutual respect that is needed in a marriage." That's bullshit. Total bullshit.
As far as I understand NJG's posts, the "religious" guy did not "abuse" anything. She wasn't raped. She made a decision to go ahead with the physical contact, knowing full well what she was doing and that she may not end up married to this man. To imply that HE was the one who "touched" HER, as if she was not a partner with him and had nothing to do with it, is an insult to her intelligence and to her ability to make her own decisions and control her own life. Not every male-female situation involves a passive, weak female being taken advantage of by a predatory male. Or didn't they teach you that in bubby school?
For that matter, you don't even know the details of the breakup (yet). Maybe SHE dumped HIM. Maybe she dumped him because SHE wanted to get in HIS pants, and he was too much of a prude. Or maybe he dumped her because she was too much for him in bed (sorry, NJG - couldn't resist).
You don't know. So why don't you withhold your holier-than-thou comments that will go nowhere and accomplish nothing but making NJG feel worse than she probably feels already.
What insane comments. How can anyone really believe that they know what goes on in any relationship? I barely know of any happy marriages where the couple never touched each other beforehand. My parents and one set of grandparents certainly did and have/had long, happy marriages. For most people-- including, I would venture, most religious
But all of this is irrelevant. Just want to say that I hope that you're doing ok and can stay a little hopeful.
NJGirl, I feel for what you are going through. I just broke up with a woman I was seeing for a while, the first serious relationship since my divorce. I wasn't SN. What can I say--? It hurts. It probably does hurt more than if I had not been SN, but I guess I wouldn't know..and does it matter?
Bubby, I echo elianna's indignation. I know plenty of people who had plenty of physical contact before marriage. One couple just had their fourth kid in almost 15 years of marriage.
When I got divorced I was quite shocked at how many divorced frum people there actually are out there-- and I'm not talking about the ones who got divorced after 10 or 15 years, like me. I'm talking about the ones who were married 5 years, 3 years, or even one year. What is going on there? Physical contact is not prohibited by the Torah. It's a normal thing, a natural expression of affection and deepening a relationship. I don't want to get into a Halachic argument, but consider how many of these marriages that only lasted less than 5 years, did so because the couple wanted to express themselves physically, but could only do so after marriage? Then once they got married, and were able to get the physical stuff out of their systems, discovered that they lacked the rest of what it takes to make a marriage work, and their horniness (excuse the expression) blinded them to that before?
In any event, NJGirl, I feel your pain. I wish I could say something to make it feel better, but the truth is that the only thing that will soothe your soul is time.
Im so, so sorry...
I, for one, will not judge - either you or the people who seem so quick to judge you. Instead I will just say that I'm sorry to hear this news. I was pulling for you, for what it's worth.
And for the record, I have always found that the people who are so quick to come forth with their righteous indignation are the people with the biggest skeletons in their closets. Ok, so I WILL judge your attackers. Sue me.
Keep the faith NJG, it's all you can do.
I am sorry. Breaking up sucks, whether it is of a physical or non-physical relationship, and whether it is you or the other person who does the breaking up. I hope that you find the right person very soon, and that Hashem grants you a clear mind and strength to find him. You deserve happiness.
I don't know where east side bubby does her research, and with whom, but if you remember I had commented on some of your other posts that I knew orthodox couples who did not observe all of the halachas of shomer negiah while they were dating. They communicated their feelings and needs and made agreed-upon decisions as to what they were and were not willng to do. Many are happily married and observe the laws of taharas hamishpacha. So until and unless east side bubby can give you more info regarding her "research," I suggest you ignore her rebuke and move on.
Ah yes, moving on. Hopefully, this relationship helped you to learn more about yourself and about what you need in a partner. So you are now that much closer to finding your true bashert. It happens frequently -- where you think "this is it!" -- but something makes it come to an end. But it's the knowledge that you gained that helps you to recognize the right one when he comes along.
Be open to meeting new and different people. And be open to reconsidering some of the guys you might have casually rejected. Engage your power of choice and choose consciously. He's not that far away now. Honest.
Dr. Janice
So sorry (not in the sense of it's my fault sorry, but you know what I mean).
I was going to say something about east side bubby's comments, but elianna pretty much summed up my feelings. A bubby should be compassionate, not judgmental.
NJG, I am sorry to hear this. But don't let it get you too down. Obviously, it wasn't meant to be. Mourn for a few weeks, if you must, then move on, and continue to search for the one. He is out there. I am sure. You may just have to step up your efforts a bit. Go out to singles events at least once a week, or if you're already doing that, make it a few nights a week. Do the personals (Jewish Week/Jewish Press personals, and, of course JDATE). Treat looking for a man like looking for a job, with a plan of action. Above all, don't get discouraged. I know. Easier said than done. But please, try and keep your head up.
Sorry to hear it, NJG. Others have poo-pooed eastsidebubbe's asinine remarks already, so I won't bother.
What I do want to say is that I hope your spirits are good, and that your heart is on the mend. You know, breaking up is a part of life. Sure, it's hard at first, but it absolutely DOES get better- and you move on.
Every relationship, good or bad, goes into your bagful of "life experiences", something for you to learn from and draw on later on. The whole "it's better to have loved and lost..." thing is 100% correct.
And hey, you've been kissed! So no matter what, you've had some good times and experienced what every person SHOULD experience in a lifetime. You'll be fine!
As a first time poster (but a long time reader) I want to echo the other comments...this sucks, it will take time to mourn and move on. give yourself the time you need. but keep writing. and living.
NJG I really didn't mean to hurt you, and I'm sorry if it came across that way
I'm just saying that I, unfortunately, found that couples are more likely to divorce if they fooled around before.
being SN makes the wedding much more special and makes for a deeper and more bonding relationship.
let me explain, please
if Abe had never touched a girl before, and his wife Sara is girl #1, then he is more likely to stay married, having nothing to compare her to.
And from Sara's side, if she knows that Abe touched other girls, even before Sara was on the scene, it still remains an ache in her heart. No matter how much she loves Abe.
NJG when you meet your soul mate, dont mention this dude, even hashem lied to protect sara emaynu's shalom bayis
I have to agree with ESB.
Many of my buddies only want to date girls who have never kissed other men.
they think it's disgusting to be guy number 2-??
I can't vouch for them though
Esther said...
Breaking up sucks, no matter how long it is, or how good it was.
She's 100% right. So sorry for you.
ESB - I'm curious to know - Are these really facts or merely suppositions on your part. I would guess that, unless you are in some Social field, you have no real basis for what you comment on as fact.
I would set forth that what you are saying may be true. But then again, maybe it's not true. yet here you come with certainty in your words and well meaning in your heart, but when you say things like that you ARE going to hurt people.
Tell us ESB, how old were YOU when you got married? Did you spend years and years aching away for something that seemed like it wass never coming? Did you have to hold out for physical contact for 32 plus years? If the answer is no, how could you ever decide what is right for someone who HAS?
A fine example of think before you speak.
Elster said...
'unless you are in some Social field'
Yes I am, hence the name.
and married at 29.
got kids.
And I'm scared stiff about them reaching the dating stage.
I don't want to sound judgemental just staing the facts.
If you want your kids to grow up religious, than you the parent (to be), have to be example # 1.
You have to live and breath the level of judiasm that you expect of your kids.
To do this you must begin at the moment your family is starting, and that begins at dating!
Don't think that on your honeymoon you can act one way and when the kids show you'll behave better.
that's BS.
NJG is tough she'll be fine...
soon BE"H
ELSTER said
"Did you have to hold out for physical contact for 32 plus years"
what's your family/friends for
it's not exactly the same but it helps
Strikeitrich, using "family/friends for" [sic] the kind of physical contact we're talking about here is illegal in probably every state. Don't be an idiot. And it doesn't help. A better comment would have been, "that's what your hand/vibrator [is] for", but we've already established that that is a very por substitute.
ESB, you say you are "just stating the facts", but what you are actually stating is really just your opinion. You haven't brought any evidence to support your statements, just "experience". That is not fact; in science we call that anecdotal. The fact is, for every couple you show me who fooled around before marriage and is divorced, I can show you acouple who did the same and is not. You can not presume to know the turblulent course of emotions that people who go through divorce endure, and assign the cause to some kissing prior to marriage. Human relationships and their problems are quite a bit more complex than that. And I still firmly maintain (and I admit that this is my opinion) that those who fooled around a bit before marriage are a bit less inclined to divorce, because they will have gotten some urges out of their system and not marry someone just to satisfy them. Again, my opinion.
I've been married, and as I've stated on my blog, it is infinitely harder for those who have been married to avoid contact than for those who have not. (Again, my subjective opinion... not trying to compare suffering). I have pretty much decided that I can not be SN in a relationship prior to marriage. I want to be able to deepen a relationship with a person a bit and experience them in a real way before marriage. That's obviously not to say that anything goes, but I think we all know what I'm talking about here. That does not make me any less frum, either.
I don't think ESBs comments were meant to offend at all, but I disagree with them. A couple can be shomer negia and then find out after the chuppah that they are not sexually compatible at all. This may be a bigger problem with older baaeli teshuva where issues of sexuality may have played a part in the person's willingness or ability to be shomer negia in the first place. For someone who was sexually active to become shomer negia for up to several years prior to a frum marriage requires a great faith and fear of hashem, or it may be evidence of an underlying sexual dysfunction.
nicejewishguy
so your saying that a relationship is dependant on sex?
no touchy feely = no marriage
i know a guy who h"y fell off a ladder and can no longer uh
i guess you would say have a relationship
so do all people who no longer ingage in sex need to divorce?
You people are all nuts. (said affectionately)
What Nice Jewish Girl needs right now is a nice Jewish HUG.
{hugs}
And permission to cry. And permission to get over him, in her own good time. And yes, permission to continue hoping. It does mean she will have a better idea of what to look for in her true mate, may she find him really soon!
Any discussions of whether being shomer negiah beforehand makes or breaks a marriage don't belong on this post. But since it wound up here anyway, I think that there are probably quite a few people out there who weren't quite completely SN before marriage who AREN'T GOING TO ADMIT IT, so all your statistics are going to be skewed even if you did manage to set up a scientific study rather than just go by anecdotal evidence. And the actual SN part isn't what matters, it's the reasons for keeping or breaking SN that make the difference anyway.
NICEJEWISHGUY
yes i can back my words
see this:
http://www.family.org/welcome/press/a0036434.cfm
http://marriage.rutgers.edu/Publications/Print/PrintWhats%20HappeningtoMarriage.htm
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2248/is_n116_v29/ai_16477227
of course these are non jewish studies which refer only to premarital sex
but you know that it rarely end with holding hands
like all torah injunctions being SN is a boost to your marriage
if one is SN it's more liky they will keep taharas hamishpacha
which in turn keeps the marriage exciting
but you know all this...right
There you go again ESB - Now you are assuming that not being SN prior to marraige equates to having sex before marraige. Utterly preposterous.
There is a huge difference between holding hands/touching than having sex. (Unless ESB, you are just totally doing it the wrong way).
The point, however, is this. (And for the record, let me state that I am NOT saying that I think people should not be SN before getting married. I am not giving an opinion on that at all either way. What I AM saying is) that we cannot understand the scope of what NJG is going through. I mean we can to some extent, because she has so eloquently set it forth on this blog. But we really cannot understand it because we have not LIVED it.
So forget your opinions and your links and all of your other nonsense. Don't come here to rip this person to shreds. Don't come here and say all she needs is a nice internet hug. Don't come here to say "she's tough, she'll get through it". Because all that shows is that you have no idea what she is going through. I admit that I don't, but at least I come to give my sympathy and support, not my "knowledge" of NJG's "terrible" misdeeds.
ESB,
Don't start with the BS that being Shomer Negiah is indicative of keeping Taharas Hamishpacha. I was not SN before I got married and I fully keep the laws of TH - and NO IT DOESN'T MAKE THE MARRIAGE MORE EXCITING. That is BS propaganda that made its way into "halacha" and has zero basis. The function of TH is not to "make the marriage exciting." It is something we suffer because we have to.
NJG: I am sorry the relationship didn't work out and believe me it's for the best. Look at it this way: At least you'll be happy in knowing that you scored!
Best Wishes for a real Mazel Tov soon!!!!
ok ok i concede holding hands is not sex
but i work in the orthodox community i see em real people
i compile my own stats
i help em...usually
some dont wanna be helped, as i see it it pity or respect not both
dear 100%
mikva night isn't something you look foward to?
see a therapist might help can't hurt
"It is something we suffer because we have to"
you have my sympathy
suffer? is not how i would phrase it
suffer refers to the girl who will never have a period
dear elster
i CAN relate ...i've been there done that, been dumped and dumped others, even after feeling ...close
can't call it love
it's closer to infatuation cause real love is cleaning up your kids barf at 3am, love is giving, hollywood love is not real
never was NEVER will be
ESB,
Sure Mikvah night is exciting but so is eating after a fast. That doesn't prove that TH makes one's marriage exciting. Your argument is seriously flawed. You sound like hypocritical BT that has a past and has the chutzpah to preach what she didn't practice.
whoa is every bashing ESB?
good me too
ESB you are too old to be here, you sound like the guy from frumteens
preach preach preach
gimme a break
you don't know everything
Strikeitrich,
Yes.. in a healthy relationship, sex is an essential factor. If two people are in a relationship are not having a healthy sex life, and neither one "fell off a ladder", then yes, something is terribly wrong. Wether of not they divorce or not depends on if they have the awareness and will to get help, and other factors. You'll have to trust me here.. I know of what I speak. And I'll tell you what I told a colleague when he told me, in a burst of uncharacteristic idiocy, that "sex is not the most important thing in a marriage": that the only married people who say that are the ones that aren't gettin' any.
Elster is correct, we shouldn't be using NJGirl's outcry here as a platform to debate this kind of stupidity. I've already gotten sucked into it more than is probably appropriate, and I do apologize.
I am sorry that this relationship didn't work out for you. Not knowing anything more, I can't really comment any further about it.
But I do want to say that the blog has evolved from what it once was. When you had never been kissed and were not seeing anyone, it was poignant and insightful, because you were able to maintain a healthy detachment. But once you started dating this latest man and grappling with the question of whether or not to get physical with him, things became too personal -- almost voyeuristic. At the time, several commenters suggested that you consider not giving us all the "play by play" of your relationship while it was ongoing. In a similar vein, it is probably wise, as you said you were doing, to give yourself "time to process this" before getting into whatever details you care to share.
One possible decision, I have to say, might be to stop this blog altogether. It depends on whether or not you are getting anything beneficial out of it. Certainly, you don't "owe" you blog readers anything (no matter how loyal or empathetic we might be).
I have additional thoughts on all of the issues expressed since my last post. However, in deference to NJG, I really don't think I will be debating them anymore. While these comments have often become forums for slightly off the topic debates, I for one don't want to add to them here.
Is there a reason no one mentioned the stupidity inherent in ESB's comment that men don't want a woman who has been "had" before? Or that women can barely bear the scar of knowing their husbands have had others?
1. The men in the Torah were polygamous
2. Does this mean that widows and divorcees should be celibate for the rest of their lives?
The bottom line is, things *happen*. People touch. People have sex. Spouses die, couples break up. When you find someone you love and trust, you GROW UP and deal with it.
Aside from this- ESB mentioned that she is obviously in a social field, "hence the name." How does that name signify a social field? And why is everyone assuming she's old just because she picked a stupid name that implies it?
NJG, be strong.
Someone I know once said that social workers are so busy trying to fix other peoples' problems that they overlook their own.
New to the blog. I feel for ya NJG and don't want to preach (here comes the but) but just from reading the flow of the blog, I saw where it was going. Don't get me wrong, we are all individuals and I'm not the type of guy to squeeze anyone in to a cookie cutter but (another but!) there are certain life patterns (like historical ones) that tend to repeat themselves and from which we can learn.
I do not judge you because I am not you and do not have similar experiences. First, I am male. Second, I have been married for aprox 15 years. I am also a baal teshuvah who was not SN until I was 20 or so and then was married aprox 2 yrs later.
It seems to me (who, again doesnt even know you but what's the point of the blog if not to get opinion and advice (good or bad)) that your frustration is not solely with being SN but is on a deeper level as evidenced by the other areas where you mentioned you became lax. Hey, I've been there. The worse thing for me was to blame it on G-d or say that G-d will understand either in the flippant manner that people often use or in the deeper manner that you explained you had used it. In retrospect, I have always looked back on my backsliding and said "Look, I messed up, I didn't pass the test." To use a poor analogy, I teach and after I give a test that some students fail, they come back and complain that the test was too hard. At the same time, I know the test wasn't too hard because, at the very least, there is a bell curve and, even better 90% of the class aced it. Point being: I've always tried to use such defeciencies in myself as an area for growth not an area of depression or blame. It seems to me that if we are baalei tesuvah, we are growth oriented and should address our issues with that angle.
A note on the TM thing: I found it out of character for you to bash TM and say that you wouldn't be able to keep the herchakos, etc. and make a judgment in that regard. The reason I feel it is out of character with the tone of your blog is you take the position that anyone who has not struggled with the same issues you have should not give advice in regard to those issues. As such, you who have never been married (it should happen at the right time and with the right person)should not pass judgment on something that can only be experienced through marriage. Finally, those of you who feel that there is nothing kedushadik or healthy about TM shouldn't make blanket statements about it. When viewed with a different perspective and used to foster intellectual and emotional relationships between husband and wife, I think it builds a stronger marriage and does make physical intimacy that much more heightened (just think of how your sensitivity to touch was heightened by your abstention). That is not to say that it is easy to remain physically separate at all times during TM,we all have our sex drives (some more intense than others) but we do it. (As strange and prudish as this may sound, just being in the room with my wife reading separate books or listening to music during TM is comforting (and in pre-BT days I had done it all from a sexual standpoint). As a friend of mine is fond of saying: Nothing worthwhile is easy.
I think I have prattled on way too long (and used far too many parentheses). I hope there is something in there that is helpful or cheering, otherwise, disregard it.
Keep your chin up and, more importantly your spirits. We're all pulling for you. He IS out there.
Take Care
DFQ
Normal1-
1. Retaining the same pseudonym which was intended originally in jest does not constitute an obsession.
2. Pointing out the polygamy in the Torah and the fact that life isn't always perfect does not constitute Jewish self-hatred.
3. Clearly you're quite judgemental, and like to take refuge in mob mentality, because you felt the need to notify me that you "all" feel my hatred. You know nothing about me. Even if I were guilty of whatever you believe me to be, it wouldn't be nearly as bad as being a Jew who hates and judges other Jews.
Sigh. That *any* observant adult is unmarried at any age is either a small or large tragedy.
NJG's situation is extremely far removed from the way things are supposed to be!
So much so, that it just seems wrong to focus on the awful side-effects, such as the torturous affectional, let alone sexual, starvation observant singles must endure.
The affliction is singlehood, but the misery of "shomer negiah" is but a symptom.
OK, so NJG couldn't bear the torture any longer and wasn't SN. That's sad, but it's no reason to either praise or condemn her. At least she hasn't given up on shabbos or other mitzvos like some singles do when they can't take it anymore.
I do commend myself daily for not slugging the deserving nudniks who patronizingly spew forth hurtful _onaas devarim_ such as:
1) "hobbies, friends, and family will take your mind off being single"
2) "study Torah and you'll be b'simcha no matter what, and shame on you for not being b'simcha"
3) "I know what you're going through since I observe niddah monthly"
4) "consider singlehood a gift, not an unfortunate situation."
G-d willing, we singles should all soon be happily married.
- BF
nice jewish girl,
we love you. all of us love you.
diona -
i'm sorry.
i believe that your bashert is somewhere out there and that you will find each other.
and just from my own personal experience, i mourned the breakups with people i wasn't physical with more than the breakups with guys i fooled around with. but that;s just me.
i really admire you so much, and i hope you get all that your heart desires.
To everyone who said that physicality before marriage destroys the marriage:
1. there is something fundamentally demeaning about considdering someone 'used goods' because of a previous sexual experience. We are all created in God's image, and that "we" is made up many different character traits and life experiences, both good and bad. Hopefully, in trying to see the Godliness in everyone we can accept all previous life experiences if we care about the person infront of us, as well as respect all decisions because we respect the person's character.
2. Wedding nights can be traumatic for people, especially women, with no sexual experience. Our bodies and minds are not designed to go from holding hands under the chuppah to having sex a few hours after all the guests leave.
3. Not touching can cloud your judgement just as much as touching. There are couples who like each other and decide to get engaged because they cannot deal with the stress and pain of not touching as opposed to getting engaged because they love each other and know their relationship is strong enough to last all the hurdles a lifetime together brings.
4. I think how you view physical experience in the past is a matter of attitude. A friend once told me that one thing she misses most about her ex boyfriends is the kissing. She says that is she could have enjoyed kissing someone who wasnt the right person for her so much, she cant even begin to imagine what kissing someone who she truly loves will be like.
- Dina.
NJG,
Don't let this breakup, get you down...
Just take what can from the relationship and move on (it may not be easy and may require a few pints of ben and jerry's) but since it didn't work out it must of not been meant to be...
your prince charming is out there and i'm sure you'll find him
we are all rooting for you!
wanted to post another supportive comment. i'm sure this is not easy.
all these comments discussing issues that may or may not have to do with your breakup can't make it any easier. my guess is that most of your readers care about you and are rooting for you.
breakups happen. let's not try to make this into a bigger issue than it has to be by using it to grandstand for or against an ideal that we may or may not agree with.
a hasidic rabbi once said, 'one who hasn't had his/her heart broken, can never really know what love is'
may you only know from naches
everybody messes up
sooner or later
everybody
sooner or later most get up brush themselves off and try again
some people bounce back
some people comtemplate life for a while
but life moves on
NJG
may you find the strength to get get up and seek what you deserve!
hey dina
your friend misses the kissing?
ya know what I think?
she shoud have kept her mouth to herself until she was married
then she would be happier now
Dina,
Your comments are spot-on, and I especially agree with #3 (which I had already similarly stated). Certain types of physical contact are essential to exploring a developing relationship _before_ the decision is made to commit your lives to each other. Holding hands, embracing, etc. engenders deeper caring than can be experienced just by looking into another's eyes. People need to know that they are emotionally and physically compatible prior to marriage. Believe it or not, most people are capable of setting certain limits on themselves with regard to physicality.
tmfan, you're an idiot.
I'm very sorry to hear about your breakup. My thoughts are with you!
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a hasidic rabbi once said, 'one who hasn't had his/her heart broken, can never really know what love is'
Oh yeah? And which Hassic Rabbi was that? I heard that a famous philosopher said that. or wait, it was a poet. a novelist? Then again, it was a famous lyricist. Uh, wait, it was a bumper sticker...Why do some people just have to delude themselves into believing that anything "deep" and "smart" or "true" must have originated from a Hassidic Rabbi. Are people that delusional?
im so sorry it did not work out. breakups are very painful whether or not someone has been sn or not. i feel for u. u will find someone again. unfortunately, i know how far and few between the good ones are, but he is out there .
Hi NJG,
I'm one of the (supportive) anonymous ones who already posted, but I just wanted to add something- please don't be influenced by those idiots who say "Stop blogging altogether because your blog has changed" or "only blog this or that" etc.
Your blog is great and I think you should keep doing it exactly the way you want to- I daresay many of your readers would agree.
And so what if it's changed? It's still fascinating to read about your ongoing experiences and feeligs. Keep up the good work and don't let any of the commenters that make depressing, unhelpful comments get to you. Most of us are rooting for you and want to keep reading what you have to say.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
"not impressed"
is really a chasidic rebbe in disguise
(AKA the Grincher Rebbe)
would that be the same Grincher Rebbe who stole Hanukkah ?
steals anything and everything
including hearts, kisses, hugs yada yada yada
Dear AnonyOne
you said
"she doesn't like the harchakos and the bedikos and the counting and the prep"
i'm with ya sis
its a pain in the butt
you'd think that the men would have to do something to prepare
(being fidgety doesnt count)
sorta unfair in my opinion
NJG,
Thanks for the update, and I am sorry if you are hurting. Long-distance relationships are always hard. Long-distance, plus all the first kiss/first touch stuff must have been even harder. I don't know what expectations you had from him or your relationship, or what happened in the end, but I just want to give you some real hope: Whatever happened between you, however you are feeling now, your feelings will change with time- this is not the end of the road for you. Especially if (I hope) you still feel more confident and beautiful as a result of finally unleashing some of that pent-up frustration. However intimate you became with him (I'm not judging), you may well grieve for the fact that you only ever wanted to kiss one man, but I promise this does not signify that you will never again meet another man to kiss who you will be able to feel strongly for. You definitely don't have to lie about this guy in the future, either. This experience has made you who you are and I know I am not the only one who is very proud of you for the way you have handled yourself throughout. In fact, now that you have overcome your SN pressures, your next relationship (whenever you are ready, and even if you end up back with this same guy) has the potential to be even healthier and stronger.
Good luck, we're all here for you and are sending you strength.
Wow, Plonimous, I think you've hit the nail on the head.
Well said.
Needsabetterjob, you can always try to find loopholes and excuses, but at the end of the day, they still are just what they are: excuses. And nothing more.
plonimus - all I can say is "your parents must be very proud." But who the hell cares if you dated some guy and didn't let him touch you? Do you want a doggy biscuit? Or a shomer negia pat on the back? We're so happy for you. But would you please shut up!!
blog detective - if I tell you that I'm a hassidic rabbi, would you attribute brilliant quotes uttered by typically secular sources to me?
man, not impressed, i am definitely not impressed! why are you getting all worked up by plonimous? she has some very valid points that bug you too much? At least try to make some kind of sense when you are rebutting a comment.. why are you so mad? look who needs to grow up a bit...
Ivory, i'm not here to impress you, but i appreciate your comment. Here's my motivation for being so nasty:
Plonimus make this point: "Look how good I am. Look how bad you are." Who needs that? Especially because it further validates an obnoxious theme too many posters on this string perpetuate, which is being completely focused on the fantasy that Shomer Negia = Happy marriage.
Says who? Why go there? Why should anyone exercise the right to judge. or to attach there own personal explanation to something that god asked us to do WITHOUT giving reasons. In this case: physical contact between men and woman.
Personally, I would love it if all couples refrained from having sex before marriage. Why? One reason: because that's a mitzvah and I want people to do mitzvos. BUT plenty of couples do touch or have sex and do have happy lives. Just like plenty of people don't and have miserable lives. We don't know why in either case and we have no right to assume it's because they are SN or not. And we have no right to imply that being non-SN makes someone a better person
By perpetuating unrealistic expectations such as SN = Happy Marriage we are promoting unhappy, unrealistic marriages. And by attaching reasons to why god wants us to do certain things, when we're not god, people get hurt. Specifically, in this case, people who are not shomer negiah.
I never said all NJG needed was a nice internet hug and everything would be magically better. I said I didn't think it was the forum to tell her that now she's blown it for marriage, b/c what I was reading was an argument about whether or not your future marriage is doomed if you're ever not SN. (Yes, I did offer an internet hug. If I had just broken up with someone, I'd want comfort and support first, and recriminations never.)
I think some people here have made some very good points, so I'll try not to repeat too much.
Someone suggested that if you don't "try it out" you won't know if you're physically compatible. I agree physical compatibility is important, but I don't think it's important enough to forgo the mitzvah of being SN. You can usually tell if the "chemistry" is present, maybe by how hard it is to keep your hands to yourself!
WHat I wanted to say was, if you believe in the concept of Shomer Negiah, whether or not you personally have been able to keep to it, that gives you a stronger base for marriage than if you just happened to never touch someone. If you believe in mitzvot given to us by G-d for our betterment, if you believe in the Divinity of the Taharat HaMishpacha laws (okay, the Rabbis messed with the program a bit) then it's easier and more rewarding than if you resent it and "suffer" through it.
I am married, and while I certainly find T"H (or TM as you've been referring to it here) to be difficult at times, I don't see it as suffering. Life is hard sometimes. Anything that's worth doing is hard. Easy is boring.
I'm not saying this right. Go read www.mayimrabim.com. They say it better than I ever could.
Thank you Plonimous and Dee for saying it better than I ever could... I agree 100%.
"a hasidic rabbi once said, 'one who hasn't had his/her heart broken, can never really know what love is"
Ha ha what a bad joke.
Chasidishe rebbes don't believe in romance and love before marriage! Most Chasidim marry the first or second guy or girl they've known for an hour or two.
Every experience prepares you for the next. Draw strength from this experience and move on. In life, we get what we choose... and then in the end we also get what we had to leave behind. That is the moral of the binding of Isaac: there is no such thing as loss.
not impressed has been fooling around
and is afraid that this will ruin his marriage
it might
Plonius is on the money
i NEED a cookie but i dont have money but im starved! does that give me the right to steal a cookie or a big mac?
i need i need i need
oh, get a grip!
the whole point of being jewish is control
control yourself grow up
behave ...or get therapy
East side bubby has had a miserable/or no marriage and blames it on the fact that she wasn't sn in her youth. Now she's older and has successfully defered all blame for her lifetime of misery on something that has no consequence. So to make up for her miserable existance, she is trying to save the world with her bad advice and wrongheaded judgements.
One more time Bubby. Don't worry, I'll type slow so you can understand: your analogy of non-SN to stealing is completely moronic. Especially because noone here is claiming that it is halachically permissible if you have a strong desire to do something that is assur d'rabonon (touching) or even assur d'oraisah (p.m.sex, or stealing for that matter).
However, that you are perpetuating the fantasy that people who are not-sn have given up their chance for happiness in marrriage is worse than ludicrous. It is a message that is antithetical to judaism (more like christianity) and damaging to people who are not married and fool around.
Give it up bubby. you're just wrong.
ouch ow that hurt
now to the business at hand
not impressed said...
It is a message that is antithetical to judaism (more like christianity)
did I say that?
um no i believe you did
not impressed said...
and damaging to people who are not married and fool around.
hopefully it'll encourage keeping in line
i'm saying that fooling around WILL leave your mate wondering if you had fooled around with others,
cause if you can't keep it zipped...then well you can't keep it zipped
that may mean before or after
if one learnt self control and was SN before marriage, then it safely follows that they will be faithful in marriage
Now regarding NJG she tried her best, i applaud her efforts, hashem knows how hard it is
and hashem knows how the shiduch system sucks
machshava tovah hakodosh baruch hu m'tzarif l'mase
this is not christian dogma that those who burst and get emotional, will burn in hell
on the contrary i'm sure NJG has great credit on high
but one cannot condone fooling around, nor ignore the the consequences of such a tryst,
even if unintentional, it leaves a permanent mark
permit me an example
a teenage boy who has never missed a tefilla b'tzibur can proudly say "I have never missed a t'filla"
but one who has even if the kid was deathly ill therefore unable to attend shul, cannot
can we blame the child? no of course not, but its never the same
i really sympathize with NJG and i wish i could do something to help her..
Grrrrr. you're kidding, right?? If you want to help NJG then read carefully:
(by the way, I fight tough, but I'm not trying or hoping to hurt you, just your idea)
Christianity: promotes the 'all-or-nothing' doctrine—with jesus you're gold. w/o jesus, you're damned.
Bubby: promotes the 'all-or-nothing' doctrine—if you're sn you're gold. w/o sn you're damned.
Judaism: promotes the 'all or something' doctrine: if you're sn, you're gold. w/o sn, well that's why we have yom kippur and, even then, there's always tomorrow.
bubby, you're telling people who are not/were not sn (which includes me, though I'm B'H married very happily for 10+ yrs, kain yirbu) that their marriage is doomed to never be as good as it can be.
What kind of crazy logic is that? Should people really believe that if they couldn't resist that they messed it all up? It just ain't so. Life isn't that black and white. People have to know that they can work past anything. They have infinite potential and can always improve. If they did something years ago, then every new day is an opportunity to make that go away. The past isn't a foundation. It's a launching pad.
You're telling NJG and anyone else reading this that SN is a 'be all and end all'. But God couldn't have meant that. And if he/she did, then who are you to say so?
People have to believe that god loves them, that the life of a Jewish person is progressive, and that what happened—happened yesterday.
To say otherwise is to give good people, people who are lovable and deserve to be happy, a reason to always look over their shoulder and blame tomorrow's problems and challenges on yesterday's events. That isn't fair and it isn't right to say.
To reiterate my original points to plonimus and you (e.s.bubby): it can't possibly be helpful to ever give anyone the opportunity to blame all the challenges they have in marriage on having not been SN.
When you give people reason to do that, you're using religion as a weapon, not as a source of positive growth and perspective. Failing to be SN does not ruin your marriage and you have no basis to claim that people who were SN will be happier than those who are not.
Is this making sense? I'm not writing this to be right. I'm writing it because people reading these comments need to know that life is not an abyss of lost opportunities that can never be reclaimed. It just isn't!!!!!!!!!
Hi everyone,
Maybe NJG broke up with HIM.
Why is everyone assuming that it was the other way around? Maybe he wasn't right for her.
If it wasn't right, it could have translated into many years in a miserable relationship if it were permanent.
And why is everyone assuming that NJG is "damaged goods" after a kiss? She has not said she did more than this.
Certainly she is not damaged goods and is not scarred for life.
somepeople here clearly believe that, but the argument currently ragin is if anyone has the right to imply that people who are not SN have a bleak future versus those who are.
an assertion that is worse than sanctimonius. It's plain wrong.
Dear NI
I agree!
(with your last post anyway)
Not Impressed, you posted a very eloquent and well tought-out post.
Just to inject a point in relation to an earlier comment of yours-- and this may be academic-- is that yes, touching is a d'rabonon but I don't think that premarital sex is assur d'oraisa. What IS assur d'oraisa is EXTRAmarital sex.. and even then strictly speaking only by a married woman. What is also ossur d'oraisa is any sex, pre- or extra- marital, with a woman who is menstruating. That is why apparently there are many unmarried women, with regular sex partners, who attend the mikva regularly.
Now, obviously, this is not a practice that one would say should be condoned, or even accepted, and you'll never find a rabbi who doesn't say you shouldn' tdo it.. but the fact is, no one can show me a strict d'oraisa prohibition on premarital sex. I even heard of one opinion that sex with a condom is not even considered sex b'di eved, since there was no union of flesh.
Just thought I'd put that out there.
(By the way.. verification word was- and I'm not kidding-- "ukudle".. ("You Cuddle")!
Man, nice horny jewish guy, you're just trying to find halachically acceptable reasons to get into every girl's pants.
NJG - Shomer Negiah doesn't really have any impact on the hurt of a breakup. Whether other people's perspective on the issue or your own, the fate of a relationship is decided purely on compatibility. The terms of what is compatible is set by the two individuals. It seems that this relationship did not agree and was not meant to be. There will be more opportunity in the future.
"It seems that this relationship did not agree and was not meant to be. There will be more opportunity in the future."
Amen! There's always tomorrow.
Not Impressed: As someone who just had to deal with a strange and sudden break-up of sorts about which more time was spent ruminating on than I will ever admit, I think what you wrote (for NJG, and anyone else for whom marital bliss seems elusive) was beautifully put and uplifting.
Just wanted to say.
NJG,
As you asked, I’ll begin by saying that I am “black-hat” Orthodox, and I met my bashert at age 25
Firstly, really sorry that things did not work out with this guy, May Hashem give you the strength to continue your search and find happiness very soon.
I really admire your response to all the comments about your kiss, you are absolutely correct. It is not something to be proud of, it was a mistake. And like anything else in life, we learn from our mistakes, and move on. SN is very hard to keep, so is nidda and sometimes we slip up. (Yes, my wife and I kissed when were still engaged, and we had sex when she was nidda, once.) Does that mean we give up? If you make a mistake at work, do you quit your job? We pick ourselves up and ask g-d to give us the strength not to fall again. This is a jew’s task in life, this is what Hashem requires of us. Very few of us mortals are to reach perfection (as far as I know only Yaakov Aveinu was called “Tum”- perfect), we must each face our own “nisyonos” and try to overcome them. And in his kindness, g-d rewards us just for the effort, and rewards us again when we are successful.
I wish you much happiness and success.
BTW- response to nice jewish guy- sex and touch before marriage (including masturbation in general), is forbidden from the Torah because of the Issur of Hotza'at Zera L'vatalah- wasting seed, so stop trying to find the leniencies of leniencies so u can "get in every girl's pants" as tmd put it very well.
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WOW
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Evian,
You are a perfect example of the guilt-laden drivel with regards to sexuality that is messing up the minds of Jews everywhere beginning in Yeshiva.
I had a conversation with my Rabbi (yes, an orthodox Musmach of Mir Yerushalayim). He stated emphatically that masturbation is not ossur, and that it is a need like any other human need; that it has nothing to do with Er & Onan; and that there is no issur of zera levatoloh. The proof of that is that one is allowed, nay encouraged, to have sex for pleasure. One may have sex with a pregnant woman, and one may have sex with an infertile woman. Sperm is constantly being produced and is only viable for a short time. The guilt and taboos regarding masturbation arose during the dark and middle ages and were played on by the christians. Everyone masturbates and those who say they don't are LYING. His statement was that it is not, repeat NOT, ossur. He did say that married people whose wives are not niddah should refrain from it, but otherwise, knock yourself out.
We would do well as a religion to stop creating so much guilt and mystique surrounding sex. It's screwed up more lives that it has saved.And if you dig down, Jewish sex lives and relationships aren't proportionally any more free of dysfunction than non, an dmight even be worse.
I don't need to "find" leniencies to "get into girls' pants". You don't know me or anything about me, so don't presume to know that that's what I'm about.
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Successful relationships are often a product of trial and error. Think of this as your first step to finding your true Basheret.
And thank him and G-d for creating a situation in which you got your first kiss. I would say that you got at least as much out of the relationship as he did, so do NOT think of it as something he "took" from you. You also "got".
Not Impressed, just wanted to say I was err, impressed by your posts. Hopefully anyone who struggles in a relationship, SN or not, has a chance to hear such good advice.
"I dont know any happily married couple that were not SN before.
Somehow the mutual respect that is needed in a marriage, starts during dating, from polite compliments and being SN"
I know plenty of happily married couples who were not shomer negiah before marriage.
Some of them have grandchildren, even great grandchildren.
If you believe SN is according to Torah, fine. Believing it has special powers to create a good relationship is pushing it, by me.
Many people who are not shoimer negiah at all break up and many people who are strictly shomer break up relationships as well.
This taken in consideration it would be ridiculous to assume that the lack of "Negiah" was the reason for the split.
I get the feeling you were well prepared for this to happen, and you are dealing with it in a healthy way. Good for you! Youre that much closer to finding him.
Nice Jewish guy - could you identify this rabbi that told you that masturbation is not ossur. I'm curious only because I've never heard that opinion before and I'd like to quote it, but I'd need a name to go behind that.
Also, not everyone is lying when they say they don't do it, just the majority, but you'd be surprised.
Nice Jewish guy - could you identify this rabbi that told you that masturbation is not ossur. I'm curious only because I've never heard that opinion before and I have a friend who wants to masturbate, so I'd need a name to go behind that.
Also, not everyone is lying when they say they don't do it, just the majority, but you'd be surprised. (not me of course!!)
nice jewish guy,
You must be corrected before you go on with life thinking that masturbation is ok. It is not - it is completely against halacha. Go clarify with your Rabbi. The points about having sex for pleasure or with a pregnant woman, or with a post menapausal woman, are used as examples to show that sex (within the guidelines of halacha) is a mitzva onto intself, even if it will definitely not result in Pru-Urevu (be fruitful and multiply). They are two completely seperate mitzvot (even though they can both be accomplished at the same time). Masturbation (spilling semen outside of the vagina) is not allowed. Period.
A new Anon.
This last post upset me a great deal. How many hang-ups do you people have to put onto yourselfs? How unpleasant do you have to make your lives? Life is hard enough. Are you telling me that Rabbis in Yeshiva teach little boys that it is NOT o.k. to touch themselves? Self-pleasuring and exploration is an important part of knowing how to be sensual with a partner.
NJG, have no regrets about your experiences in life, they make you a richer and more compassionate person.
Nice Jewish guy,
Change your name and change your Rabbi. He's as ignorant as you are. Pirkei ovus says to get married at 18 for reason. HZ"L is prohibited big time. It has nothing to do with the church.
Shomer negiah, I mean ex-Shomer negiah, perhaps this we'll cheer you up. Remember:
If you love something set it free. If it comes back it was meant to be yours, and if it doesn't.....
hunt it down and kill it.
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