Irrational Outburst
One or two comments people have left are to the affect that “at least being Shomer Negiah is good practice for keeping the laws of Niddah.”
That comment made me so unexpectedly angry that it took all my self-control (of which I clearly have perhaps too much) not to create havoc in my apartment by breaking everything in sight and screaming until I am hoarse (the primal scream!)
What I have to say about this is not an intellectual discourse about hilchos niddah or our obligation to keep it. I know what the halachos are and I know what I am supposed to say about them. But this is how I really feel just now:
After not being hugged or kissed or even having my hand held for 34 years, anyone who thinks I will give them up for any time after I am married has another think coming. That includes G-d. If He wanted me to spend half my married life not being touched He should have made me get married at least a few years ago when I would not have minded so much. I am at the end of my rope I tell you. I am finished with being pure. I am done with being Good and Holy. You can forget it.
I can agree to refrain from sexual intercourse for half of my married life if I ever have a married life and I can agree to go to the mikvah so that when we have sex it will be “kosher.” But most of you people- you have gotten thousands of hugs and thousands of kisses either before or after you got married or both. How often have you cried yourself to sleep because no one has ever caressed your cheek? Have you ever gone for 34 years without being kissed? The thought of keeping all those harchakos and not being touched half the time even after I get married makes me enraged. Any obligation I used to feel to keep those halachos has been wrung out of me and what is left of me has been left to dry in a private hell of loneliness and sexual deprivation. My spirit is broken. Damn it, if I ever get married I will get all the hugs and kisses to make up for lost time even if I cannot always have sex, and if God does not like it then He is the one who can go to hell.
The only people who can legitimately give me chizzuk about keeping all the halachos of taharas hamishpacha are people who were never ever kissed until they got married at least at the age of 35 (it will be my birthday soon. 34 will come and go and I will still be “never been kissed.”) If you got married when you were 23 and now want to tell me that even after I am married I should “be strong” and “do the right thing” then just shut up. Tell it to the juniors at Stern College not to me. I am broken. The only thing stopping me sometimes from doing something drastic to hurt myself physically or emotionally is the teeny tiny hope that perhaps I will get married after all someday. But give up being touched even after that? No way. You may as well tell a marathon runner “congratulations you have reached the finish line. But no water here. You have to run another 26 miles for that.” Forget it.
Update: Already I am not sure how I feel about what I wrote in this post. It is a big struggle and a terrible question for me. I want to have a marriage with kedusha but when I think about effectively being shomer negiah half the time even after I am married I feel dead inside like God has taken something away and I am not myself anymore just an empty shell.
I don't know.
That comment made me so unexpectedly angry that it took all my self-control (of which I clearly have perhaps too much) not to create havoc in my apartment by breaking everything in sight and screaming until I am hoarse (the primal scream!)
What I have to say about this is not an intellectual discourse about hilchos niddah or our obligation to keep it. I know what the halachos are and I know what I am supposed to say about them. But this is how I really feel just now:
After not being hugged or kissed or even having my hand held for 34 years, anyone who thinks I will give them up for any time after I am married has another think coming. That includes G-d. If He wanted me to spend half my married life not being touched He should have made me get married at least a few years ago when I would not have minded so much. I am at the end of my rope I tell you. I am finished with being pure. I am done with being Good and Holy. You can forget it.
I can agree to refrain from sexual intercourse for half of my married life if I ever have a married life and I can agree to go to the mikvah so that when we have sex it will be “kosher.” But most of you people- you have gotten thousands of hugs and thousands of kisses either before or after you got married or both. How often have you cried yourself to sleep because no one has ever caressed your cheek? Have you ever gone for 34 years without being kissed? The thought of keeping all those harchakos and not being touched half the time even after I get married makes me enraged. Any obligation I used to feel to keep those halachos has been wrung out of me and what is left of me has been left to dry in a private hell of loneliness and sexual deprivation. My spirit is broken. Damn it, if I ever get married I will get all the hugs and kisses to make up for lost time even if I cannot always have sex, and if God does not like it then He is the one who can go to hell.
The only people who can legitimately give me chizzuk about keeping all the halachos of taharas hamishpacha are people who were never ever kissed until they got married at least at the age of 35 (it will be my birthday soon. 34 will come and go and I will still be “never been kissed.”) If you got married when you were 23 and now want to tell me that even after I am married I should “be strong” and “do the right thing” then just shut up. Tell it to the juniors at Stern College not to me. I am broken. The only thing stopping me sometimes from doing something drastic to hurt myself physically or emotionally is the teeny tiny hope that perhaps I will get married after all someday. But give up being touched even after that? No way. You may as well tell a marathon runner “congratulations you have reached the finish line. But no water here. You have to run another 26 miles for that.” Forget it.
Update: Already I am not sure how I feel about what I wrote in this post. It is a big struggle and a terrible question for me. I want to have a marriage with kedusha but when I think about effectively being shomer negiah half the time even after I am married I feel dead inside like God has taken something away and I am not myself anymore just an empty shell.
I don't know.
posted by Shomer Negiah at 4/03/2005 05:40:00 PM
35 Comments:
I know it may sound trite already, but stay strong. we are all rooting (and davening) for you.
As for what you'll do when you get married, worry about it then. You may find that you feel differently about it by that point, so there's no reason to make a policy about it now.
I'm sorry if my words seem hurtful. you have no idea how much I empathize with you (reading this nearly brings me to tears) and how the last thing I'd ever want is to hurt you, but I'm only saying what I know to be true. (and I know that I have not been in your shoes. I'm not judging you at all. {well, maybe a little. I think your struggle emphasizes your tzidkus, even if you don't believe it, and even if you'd rather trade it for a man.}) From Avraham till now, judaism has never been easy. And it sometimes seems unfair, it can seem downright cruel, but everything will ultimately work out for the best. I believe it for my own sorrows and I believe it for yours.
Hang in there NJG.
i agree. you don't know how you/'ll feel about it then. maybe you'll want some compromise but not the one you envision now. maybe your husband will have a different approach and you'll work something out with him.
Hi, I am a nice jewish girl from Israel. a very good friend of mine told me about your blog...
its 2:15 pm here in Israel. I just finnished reading your blog. ( it took me a while because my very bad english- as you can see for yourself:))
you write in a special way. very sensitive and with a lot of wisdom.
I know its a "shomer negiah" blog and you are S.N girl. but you failed-
you touched me.
thanks for yor writing and for the chance to improve my english in a very pleasant way.
kisses and hugs from the holy land
an Israeli girl who knows what you are talking about .
Wow. What a load of your chest that was! Don't know how to answer that. I mean if you are not planning on keeping all the laws of niddah when you are married, why the hell are you shomer negia now? The niddah/taharas hamishpacha is way more important thatn being sn now! So lady, wake up and smell the coffee and figure out what you want in life.
Obviously you are upset and down and all the other things that go with it, but please, dont announce that you dont want to keep the essence of a bayis neeman byisroel
you contradict youself!!!
Please-- it is one thing to go to the mikvah and not have sex. It is another thing not to touch at all.
I totally agree the harchakos are ridiculous, and I'm married. Since when is passing a tissue sexy? Or passing a baby to the not-yet exhausted spouse? And backrubs etc don't always have to turn into sex...
As a male, I can attest to the fact that seemingly innocuous gestures can be arousing. (Let alone a backrub!! (were you actually serious?!)) I imagine that many women would probably express similar sentiments. (anon, among other things, perhaps some research into the concepts of "geder" and "lo ploog" would be helpful.)
Either way, I find it somewhat disgusting that anonymous above would basically call the torah's laws ridiculous.
If I had to decide between torah law and the wisdom of the sages (besides my own common sense) vs. the notions of some rude (and ridiculous) anonymous blogger, I think I'll side with halacha. Personally.
and folks, please, it's one thing to disobey halacha, but to discount/rewrite it to meet one's own idea of right and wrong is just too low.
may you blessed as you find your way....and live your life in joy, and happy, as g_d intended.
"The niddah/taharas hamishpacha is way more important thatn being sn now! "
huh? if she hasnt been to the mikva now it's the same.
Intimate touch and the other harchakot are not the same (intimate touch is potentially d'oreita, same as for singles), and the harchokot are not the same as assorted other practices such as not passing items.
I think it's better not to turn this thread into an opportunity to give moralistic lectures to NJG or for legalistic hairsplitting. She titled the post "Irrational Rant." I'm sure NJG will cross that bridge when she comes to it, and she is as capable of making wise decisions about T"Hamishpacha as any of the commenters are.
I hope that NJG will be in this situation soon, where she has to decide how she really feels about touch when a nidah when married.
Dear NJG,
I think Hashem hears your pain and frustration. I can't tell you what to do, other than the religious life can be a real struggle and pain in the tuchus, we don't always know why G-d throws these challenges at us, but we shouldn't stop questioning Him and ourselves. I give you a Berachah that you find a guy and the sex is so good that he tires you out for 10-14 days a month!
Stay strong
TRK
amen!
NJG,
In my experience being shomer negiah was much, MUCH harder than taharat hamishpacha. For all of the reasons you have listed here and more: the fear that you will never be kissed, the anxiety about how your sexuality will play out with a man, the need to be loved... When you are married, be'ezrat Hashem, many of these fears will be very reassured. I am not saying TH will be easy -- it is always a trial and a struggle. But it will not be the gnawing desperate hopeless hunger that SN is now.
Saying to someone in your position that SN is good practice for TH is a little bit like saying starving to death is good practice for Yom Kippur.
http://passionatelife.blogspot.com/
How about this guy?
1. I never knew SN was the same as TM. Are you really positive that they are the same thing? I never knew that the laws were equivalent. And until proven, I think they are not.
2. To the anonymous who said that the harchakos are ridiculous, what are you saying? I feel that they are hard and I a mere human cannot understand them, but then again the whole issue of TM is a CHOK and it is not meant to be understood by us. How can you say that touching your husband is not a turn on? Of course it is, why else can't we do that? As for a backrub...what are you talking about...a non-sexual act? WTF!!! I don't know about you, but when I give or get one it is a great turn on and JUST Love the touch!! So yes, I feel that the touching during niddah time is essential! and that there is no way around it.
3. I think SN is only hardre than TM is because of the desire of the unknown. You are desiring something you don't know about and only read, or watched. You dont actually know how it feels and therefore you desire it more. Yes once you have it you are going to want it, but you will be able to contain yourself...(unless of course you are the anon person who said that it is not sexual)
Both are hard but both have their own reward for practicing it.
Please explain what is ridiculous? Are saying that Gods laws are silly? Maybe you mean "I don't understant them" as opposed to them being silly? How can something that is law be silly?
My next question is what does backrubs don't have to turn sexy? What are you talking about? Since when is a backrub not a turn on for the guy? Do you really understand your husband? Who is to say what is a turn-on and what is not? I know plenty of couples who say it is a turn on when the wife passes things and when they do all the things that are not allowed to during a niddah period. They understand why things are assured during niddah!
I personally feel that touching is definately a turn on! Who isn't turned on by a backrub? Please tell me you are! Even if it is the slightest of touch! Think about passing...the slightest touch when the time is right and who knows when and where can be a turn on!
Unless your sex-life is dull, backrubs are sexy and touching as well. If you say passing and touching doesnt lead to sex...what does??
I hope you do find a wonderful man and get married and are kissed and made love to to oblivion. That being said, why drive yourself crazy abt what you will want to do then now? That will be something you will be able to discuss with him at lentgth, and maybe your feelings will change. Or not. In the meantime, be as kind to yourself as you can.
I realize this is terrible self-promotion, but you may be interested in some of the contributions on Mayim Rabim.
First, the laws of SN + yichud are supposed to prevent the same thing as the harchakot - having intercourse with a woman who is a nidda.
That said, there are different levels of harchakot. The gemara only lists a few, many more were added by ashkenazi rishonim (and are not followed by sefardim) and fall under the category of minhag.
The top level would acccording to some (but not most) rishoinim be biblically prohibited, but this would only include physical content that is sexual (or perhaps affectionate).
Anyway, the lower level harchakot all come into play after marriage becasue there is no prohibition of yichud between married partners, so extra measures were added. and yes, many of them (especially the minhagim) seem really silly, and are. Not passing is especially onerous, and I would never tell people who have trouble with it to be too hard on themselves.
Back to NJG's point: from personal experience, before we were married (we dated for 1 yr) we had a lot of trouble not touching, and we did many things short of sex. After marriage, the fact that you know that you only have to hold out for 12-13 days makes it bearable (not easy, not fun, not emotionally enriching) just bearable. And after mikva we baqsically want to go at it like jackrabbits, which is nice, but very emotionally bi-polar.
So, I really wouldn't worry about it at all on way or the other. I really sympathise with all you are going through, and I wish I could tell you it makes sense or something. All I can say is that being a thinking religious human being is hard enough as it is, but much harder for you than most. I hope you find someone soon - you deserve happiness as much as anyone.
Lulei demistafina, I think it's important for those of you who have been using these posts to elucidate everyone on the ins and outs of Taharas Hamishpacha are (a) completely missign the point and (b) over on lo'eig larash.
Leave the poor girl alone. Let her first get to the point where Taharas Hamishpacha is a factor and then we'll worry about her level of observance.
In the meantime, say something inspirational or nothing at all.
1) dc, considering that before you were married you did "many things short of sex", I wonder if that is all the more reason to be careful to KEEP SN.
2) I'm not sure why people have this impression that mitzvos were made for all of us to have fun, b/c it's not the case. (though they very often are enjoyable.)
We follow mitzvos b/c they're the right thing to do.
3) I just want to reiterate that SN is still a *di'oraysa* acc. to some and a chiyuv acc. to all.
And NJG is looking for a mate with whom she can be effectionate -- not a chance to shake hands with the doorman. so, let's stay focused.
1) dc, considering that before you were married you did "many things short of sex", I wonder if that is all the more reason to be careful to KEEP SN.
2) I'm not sure why people have this impression that mitzvos were made for all of us to have fun, b/c it's not the case. (though they very often are enjoyable.)
We follow mitzvos b/c they're the right thing to do.
3) I just want to reiterate that SN is still a *di'oraysa* acc. to some and a chiyuv acc. to all.
And NJG is looking for a mate with whom she can be effectionate -- not a chance to shake hands with the doorman. so, let's stay focused.
I would like to address some practical issues. It seems to me that you are in a rut. You need to get out of the city more and explore the possibilities in other cities and countries. Or have you done this?
I can relate to your problem to some extent. As a male, I wasn't frum then at 27 that was the first time for me, which was at least 10 years longer than my friends at that time.
I think the problem is compounded that you are not dating anyone at the moment so you are too focused internally.
Also, I think that alot of offers for help that you are rejecting now, you should not. It may seem that you might embarrass yourself a bit, but in the scheme of things that it nothing. You don't want CHas Ve Shalom, in 10 years from now to say, yeah I should have answered all those emails, w/ or w/ out my IP Address. ( I believe there are many ways to change your IP address to the outside world. )
It could all lead to a book and a new lucrative and enjoyable career for you.
Finally, I invite you to get into Aish HaTorah slash Discover programs that discuss these topics - Dating, sex, etc...
You will find much knowledge there and many fine happy people to meet.
I'm the one who commented about ridiculous harchakos and backrubs. By ridiculous I mean that they were "instituted" what, 100 years ago? And by backrub I meant a massage while sitting at the computer, merely a massage that gets the knots out of your shoulders and neck and spine, not a sexy, sensual backrub while lying down. Brushing against my husband's hand while passing him car keys isn't a turn on; sitting at the table to eat at home isn't a turn on. Dancing would be, making out on the couch while watching Sex and the City would be. Etc. Why is it a harchakah to do daily stuff that you'd do with anyone else you know?
And in my marriage of over 10 years it's kinda the reverse - I'm more physically affectionate than my wife. She can do without hugs a lot easier than I, but I find it _very_ difficult to go 12-14 days without them. We compromised - complete SN for the last 3 days b4 mikveh, but other times she lets me hug her. Oh & DC is right.
To the anonymous peson about harchakos: I don't normally give everyone I see a backrub while they are sitting at the computer. That is saved for my wife alone or she gives one to me. By her touching me like that shows me her love and it makes me alive down there even if it is not meant to be sexual. As for eating at a table, who said you cannot do that?
Do you hear what you are saying? You are saying that these laws that were made up 100 years ago shouldn't be around today. How do I break this to you? The Torah is older than that, should we get rid of that too? Should we break down the religion and say, eh, it's over 50 years ago, we need a new revised modernized religion now.
I think you should ask your husband and be honest with yourself...when you do touch doesn't it mean something to you? WHen you know you can't touch does it make the clean days more special?
~B
OK it is time for the discussion about harchakos to come to an end. This is not the place for it anymore. Take it to the Bas Torah blog or something. And be kind to each other. The Anonymous woman obviously is refraining from sex when she is a Niddah even if she is not keeping the harchakos and that is a very big deal. Very few people make that commitment. She is obviously a very committed Jew. If she is not as committed as you then leave her alone anyway.
Thanks, NJG.
A few thoughts...
You seem very angry with G-d that he has not kept his part of the bargain. You were good and pure and he did not deliver the husband and children you deserved. I agree. Additionally, even were you to decide to break your side now (as you have in a sense), you no longer have the same options that you used to have, so you continue keeping your side of the bargain by default.
You're right, you got screwed. Like spending fifteen years working at a company for shit wages, being told that you'd be promoted, and never getting promoted but realizing that you're now too old to start off somewhere else so you can either continue working for shit wages the rest of your life, or be on the street with nothing. You totally got screwed.
I think the reason that people (myself included) keep trying to nitpick into things you might have done to cause/deserve your situation is because confronting you makes us question the bargain itself. If G-d can screw you like this, then what about all of our implied bargains with him? Those who are married want to believe that they got married becuase G-d wanted them to and they deserved it. Those who are not-yet married want to believe that they will get married soon if they keep on keeping their side of the bargain. Your case, if true, means that G-d can't be trusted or the bargain can't be trusted; essentially, nothing can be trusted.
So we look for reasons why your case does not apply, because without the bargain, what do we have? Just a lot of rules and a promise for an eternal life and reward. Children's stories.
Personally, I don't think that anyone "deserves" to get married or "deserves" to be happy. Ours is a capricious G-d who does what he wants when he wants. There is no bargain. Anyway, I don't think your problem is sex, I think it's a feeling of betrayal by G-d. He has not delivered.
On a side note: I think you ought to read Victor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning." Might help.
UJG
I agree that many people probably have some subconscious notion of a "bargain with G-d"; however, in actuality, no such "deal" exists. As such, it's not really a logical argument, as you seem to be presenting it. I think you are making the very human and common mistake of confusing your emotions with reality and presenting them as self-evident and "logical" truths. No offense, but think about it.
b,h,&e
p.s. perhaps I missed it, but I also don't recall reading *any* comment which tried to propose and explain why NJG "deserved" this "punishment".
goodness gracious! saying god can go to hell is wonderful! that made my day! you absolutely must read this (i posted it in another comment too but seriously this is super relevant) http://khrah.blogspot.com/2005/12/i-just-read-mobius-post-from-whenever.html
While your frustration is understandable, I can tell you as someone who is only recently married - the anticipation that being "good" for 12 days a month builds makes the other 20 soemthing days a month that much greater. Most couples expereince burn-out. Even frum ones. However, relatoinship councelors will agree that the harchakos - it all makes sense.
1 is the loneliest number. I feel horrible for your frustration and will add you to my davening. I sincerely care. However, as one that can relate to your frustration (on some level) I can tell you that becoming bitter about it, while it helps to vent, can be a dangerous exercise. It is very important to remember to move beyond the bitterness and try to be as happy as possible whenever possible. By being an upbeat person you will not only be happier but more attractive to the opposite sex in general. Being upbeat is a decision you can make for yourself. It's a struggle, but as much as life may be difficult, it's up to you to decide how you want to deal with it. So vent away, get out your feelings (maybe some things are better left in private or discussed with a friend, but that's your call), but remember that unless you decide that you are ready to move on, to be a more positive person, you will continue to be miserable. Loneliness is very difficult, trust me I can relate. But by making that choice to try to be positive, by building a social support group, you can help yourself and others in your situation. there is someone out there for you. Keeping "the rules" isn't only reward and punshiment, it can be the distrinction between satisfaction and misery in a relationship that I hope and pray you will one day be privy to.
hi well you sound quite depressed and therefore taking it out on this factor. My suggestion to you would be is to first get out of yout depression and then rethink. I totally understand that it is easier said than done but I do think that it will help the situation. There is alot to do in life even if you arent married, and about never being hugged or kissed all I can say is that the next time someone hugs or kiss me i will think of you and be grateful.
Thanx for writing your opinion!
I'm sorry for you and hope you find you love very soon. But you can't say some things like let him go to hell, I promise you that god is the one that makes shidduchim, and you will never get one by speaking about our father in heaven this way! And it could very possibly be a isur deoriasa to say such a thing. You never can know when the right guy, the love of your life will come along, how do you know if it will be tomorrow or next week? How do you know what small test can be the one you need to pass an all your prayers will be answered?
Hi,
I totally understand how you feel. As someone from a different background I hope I can offer you an alternative perspective.
I grew up in a secular society who thought I was silly for wanting to wait until I was married to have sexual relations (just sexual relations). Even my mother told me it's OK to have sex before you are married as long as you love the person.
Anyway, one divorce and several long term relationships later, I found myself ba'al teshuva, and I big driving point that got me here is because of all the wasted time that occurred having relations with men who strung me along with no urgency to get married...why should they when they can have relations with me in their own home and have no responsibilities?
Another thing...the relationships lasted from 7 months to a year and a half. I was also engaged just before I became observant, to someone I had been seeing for over 3 years. We were engaged for over 1 year of that time, and he had no desire to get married for another few years. Again why should he when he had everything without the problems?
In those relationships I must say, without Neda, men start becoming less hungry to please women because they have sex very often. It's the sexual tension that keeps them wanting to please their wife. And it's the sexual tension and the return of sexual relations after the Mikva that keeps the romance alive. (This is what my married friend who goes to the Mikva tells me.)
Hope this helps. :)
NJG,
Here's the real deal:
You haven't been kissed, hugged or touched in 34 years. You're desperate to get married and the thought of the future makes you so depressed and ready to self harm rather than be excited. I'm sorry to reiterate these painful facts but I'm just trying to get the facts straight. PLEASE keep reading to hear the positive side of all this.
So what can you gather from these facts? It is that G-D does not make these things happen. YOU DO.
Everyone here can give you pedantic advise because they haven't been there. They don't know how much it hurts. In a way I know how you feel. I grew up conservative, which is a far cry from Chassidish, but I didn't get kissed by a boy until far after my friends had, and had gone on to have boyfriends and experience other intimacies. I was SO JEALOUS of them, and I used to think, what's wrong with me? Why aren't there any boys that I could like who like me or want to ask me out? It made my self confidence plummet and my heart close.
Despite what a lot of people on this blog may tell you, this "stay strong" matra is crap. You are a living, breathing, thinking HUMAN WOMAN and you deserve to receive affection just as much as any tzinus halakha 23 year old getting it on with her husband at the proscribed times of the month.
They feel that they have the right to judge you because they got married, and in thier head that means that G-d wanted them to and just doesn't want you to.
NJG, this life is yours. It doesn't belong to anyone else but you. Not the rabbis, not your community, just YOU. You must take responsibility for the fact that maybe this aspect of the Chassidic lifestyle isn't working for you, and I don't mean having respect for yourself and not marrying some 89 year old widower because "this may be your last chance," I mean that maybe you need to take action into your own hands and go to a singles event or something. That way you can at least have a greater chance of meeting someone who you can not only fall in love with, but meet someone who holds the same beliefs as you, that won't care what day or time of the month it is, but will kiss you when you wake up next to them in the morning in the same bed. I have to believe that in the vast universe of New York Jewry, there are MULTIPLE men who could be right for you and who you could lead a happy life with. And if you happen to go on some unsupervised dates, hold hands, and gasp! even get kissed- I have to think, no believe or even KNOW, that if there is a god out there, they will be sitting up on their golden throne chuckling to themselves and saying "FINALLY! I was waiting for her to go out and do something about this already!" and they/I will be genuinely and completely happy for you.
Don't torture yourself. You don't deserve this. No G-d would want you to be this unhappy with your life. There is a whole world of people out there ready to know you, meet you and yes, love you, and if that happens to break the law some old man whose only qualifications for being a rabbi was being a rabbis son and using texts that are really just other people's thoughts to support his own limited, narrow minded view of shomer nigyah, then I guess we'll just have to deal with that.
I hope that you come to the realization that if you believe there is a G-d, then you should know that he has given the power for you to make your life happen, and that YOU can get kissed if you really want to.
Well right now, I am hugging you Niddah- literally I am putting my arms across my body and squeezing, pretending that you are here. So now at least you can know that you have been hugged by me, and even if it is a pretend hug, it is a hug, just for you, to show my appreciation.
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